Discussion:
GOP Voter Suppression Comes to Wisconsin
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Gary J Carter
2008-09-15 13:17:48 UTC
Permalink
GOP Voter Suppression Comes to Wisconsin

Posted by Steven Rosenfeld, AlterNet at 3:56 PM on September 13, 2008.

A politically timed lawsuit by the state’s Republican attorney general
may create chaos at polling places on Nov. 4.

Partisan voter suppression efforts have many faces, but they all have
one goal: suppressing your political opponent's voters.

In Wisconsin this past week, the Republican Attorney General, J.B. Van
Hollen, filed a politically timed lawsuit that local election
officials say will interfere with turnout for the presidential
election on Nov. 4 and create a bureaucratic nightmare for election
workers seeking to process a record number of new voter registrations
before then. The AG's game plan is simple: create a bureaucratic
nightmare to tie up the election machinery before Election Day and
then create bottlenecks to confound voters on Election Day.

According to a Sept. 12 report by Steven Elbow at Madison.com, the
Wisconsin AG filed suit this past Wednesday forcing election officials
to use a tactic being employed by Republicans in other states --
notably Michigan, Kansas and Louisiana -- that involves removing
people from voter rolls if the addresses on their voter registration
forms does not match the address on their state driver's licenses. The
rationale to purge would be based on the assumption that if the
addresses did not match then the voter registration would be incorrect
and therefore invalid.

Never mind that Wisconsin is among a handful of states where voters
can register to vote on Election Day and ostensibly clear up or
correct any registration information error at that time. The suit's
goal is voter suppression, which would be accomplished by causing
delays in voting when people show up on Election Day and are told they
are not on voter rolls and then would have to go through the
registration process, delaying them and holding up other voters in
line behind them.

What's especially outrageous about this tactic in Wisconsin is that
the very federal election law that makes this voter purging technique
illegal in most states -- the National Voter Registration Act --
exempts Wisconsin from the NVRA's voter purging process because the
state has Election Day Registration. In other words, because Wisconsin
is among a handful of states with the most liberal, voter-friendly
laws, its voters do not have the legal protections intended to stop
voter suppression in other states.

Elbow's report on Madison.com quotes that city's clerk about the
impact of the AG's suit.

"It will disenfranchise voters. That's what we're concerned about,"
City Clerk Maribeth Witzel-Behl said. "We're working on plans to make
sure we don't have long lines at the polls, make sure that the lines
can move smoothly and quickly. If we throw this into the mix, then it
is going to slow things down."

The Madison.com report reveals the Wisconsin AG is reading from a
long-established GOP playbook, justifying 'ballot security' concerns
under the banner of preventing voter fraud.

"Van Hollen spokesman Kevin St. John said Van Hollen wants the GAB to
verify voters who registered by mail since Jan. 1, 2006, because they
didn't have to show an ID," Madison.com reported.

Imposing stricter voter ID laws has been the Republican legislative
response to so-called Democratic voter fraud in recent years. The GOP
defines this phenomena as hordes of Democrats posing as other voters
and voting more than once to pad the vote count. While there are
pre-existing election laws that ban such activity, and handfuls of
prosecutions in states when people attempt to vote more then once, the
Bush administration Justice Department has only prosecuted two dozen
such cases despite devoting significant manpower hours by federal
prosecutors to ferret out such abuse -- and even firing U.S. Attorneys
who did not pursue such cases. The GOP strategy is based on
identifying a handful of errors in filing new registration forms, a
retail-level problem, if you will, and imposing a statewide response,
a wholesale solution.

Stripped of discussing it in polite terms, it is akin to institutional
racism -- since many of likely Democratic voters targeted by such ID
laws are people of color, students and other under-represented sectors
of the public.

The Madison.com report says the state's election director, Kevin
Kennedy, told the AG that "the (state election) board is committed to
preventing voter fraud, but (said) Van Hollen's demands are too much,
too soon."

"The board believes it would be counter-productive to rush this effort
and to create a significant risk, at best of unnecessary hardship and
confusion at the polls, and at worst the disenfranchisement of
Wisconsin citizens with a clear and legitimate right to vote," Kennedy
said, in the Madison.com report.

Thousands of voter registrations will likely be affected if a court
approves the suit, the Madison.com report said.

"As the election approaches, the phones at clerks' offices get busier,
so people calling back to resolve discrepancies will be less likely to
get through," the report said. "The closer we get to the election, the
less time we have to clear things up," Witzel-Behl said.

The partisan nature of the AG's lawsuit was best expressed in a
comment by Diane Hermann-Brown, Sun Prairie city clerk, who said the
court needs to act quickly if it wants counties and municipalities to
comply. "I don't think he's wrong on what he's doing," she said of Van
Hollen. "It probably needs to get done. It just should have been done
sooner."

Hermann-Brown's comment about the suit's timing underscores why this
is a partisan action, not an exercise in good government.

Selective enforcement of voting rights laws is all about shaping
election rules to one party's benefit. If the Wisconsin AG was so
concerned about accurate voter registration rolls dating back to
January 2006, one would think he would have acted sooner than 60 days
before a presidential election. Something stinks in Wisconsin
elections -- and it's not the cheese.

A court hearing is scheduled for later this week.

Steven Rosenfeld is a senior fellow at Alternet.org and co-author of
What Happened in Ohio: A Documentary Record of Theft and Fraud in the
2004 Election, with Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman (The New Press,
2006).
Orval Fairbairn
2008-09-15 13:46:57 UTC
Permalink
What's wrong with a voter having ID confirming that (s)he is who (s)he
claims to be and is a US citizen?
--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.
kujebak
2008-09-15 18:50:17 UTC
Permalink
It prevents one from voting as someone else ;-)
Post by Orval Fairbairn
What's wrong with a voter having ID confirming that (s)he is who (s)he
claims to be and is a US citizen?
--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.
Gary J Carter
2008-09-15 21:05:26 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:50:17 -0700 (PDT), kujebak
Post by kujebak
It prevents one from voting as someone else ;-)
Post by Orval Fairbairn
What's wrong with a voter having ID confirming that (s)he is who (s)he
claims to be and is a US citizen?
--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.
We need a national set of guidelines for all elections. If the state
does not comply or is found in foul of those guidelines, they loose
their electoral votes for that election. National election processes
should be identical from state to state. Computers should be allowed
only to register. All ballots should be paper and counted that way.
Rigging an election is or should be a treasonous offense.
Orval Fairbairn
2008-09-16 02:56:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary J Carter
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:50:17 -0700 (PDT), kujebak
Post by kujebak
It prevents one from voting as someone else ;-)
Post by Orval Fairbairn
What's wrong with a voter having ID confirming that (s)he is who (s)he
claims to be and is a US citizen?
--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.
We need a national set of guidelines for all elections. If the state
does not comply or is found in foul of those guidelines, they loose
their electoral votes for that election. National election processes
should be identical from state to state. Computers should be allowed
only to register. All ballots should be paper and counted that way.
Rigging an election is or should be a treasonous offense.
AMEN!

When I lived in California, nobody checked ID when I voted. Is it any
wonder CA is Democrat?

When I moved to Florida, I was pleased that they checked ID when I voted
the first (and subsequent) time(s).

The ACORN types don't want voter ID because it inhibits their ability to
stuff ballot boxes and to get out the dead vote.
--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.
Bill Z.
2008-09-16 04:51:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orval Fairbairn
When I lived in California, nobody checked ID when I voted. Is it any
wonder CA is Democrat?
When I moved to Florida, I was pleased that they checked ID when I voted
the first (and subsequent) time(s).
The ACORN types don't want voter ID because it inhibits their ability to
stuff ballot boxes and to get out the dead vote.
How stupid can you be.
Orval Fairbairn
2008-09-16 14:17:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Orval Fairbairn
When I lived in California, nobody checked ID when I voted. Is it any
wonder CA is Democrat?
When I moved to Florida, I was pleased that they checked ID when I voted
the first (and subsequent) time(s).
The ACORN types don't want voter ID because it inhibits their ability to
stuff ballot boxes and to get out the dead vote.
How stupid can you be.
Please explain. Why SHOULDN'T voters have to show positive ID before
voting?

It is stupid to let unverified (and ineligible) voters vote.
--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.
Gary J Carter
2008-09-16 14:49:41 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 10:17:36 -0400, Orval Fairbairn
Post by Orval Fairbairn
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Orval Fairbairn
When I lived in California, nobody checked ID when I voted. Is it any
wonder CA is Democrat?
When I moved to Florida, I was pleased that they checked ID when I voted
the first (and subsequent) time(s).
The ACORN types don't want voter ID because it inhibits their ability to
stuff ballot boxes and to get out the dead vote.
How stupid can you be.
Please explain. Why SHOULDN'T voters have to show positive ID before
voting?
It is stupid to let unverified (and ineligible) voters vote.
If not, it should be illegal with severe punishments for altering or
making the US electoral system dishonest. Punish the party with
the removal of their electoral votes. Punish the individual with
serious jail time. I'd be more than happy to pay the taxes to keep
these people behind bars than some individual from smoking a joint.
Bill Z.
2008-09-16 17:28:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orval Fairbairn
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Orval Fairbairn
When I lived in California, nobody checked ID when I voted. Is it any
wonder CA is Democrat?
When I moved to Florida, I was pleased that they checked ID when I voted
the first (and subsequent) time(s).
The ACORN types don't want voter ID because it inhibits their ability to
stuff ballot boxes and to get out the dead vote.
How stupid can you be.
Please explain. Why SHOULDN'T voters have to show positive ID before
voting?
The reason I called what you said was "stupid" is your comment about
stuffing ballot boxes and getting out the "dead vote". That really
is a stupid thing to say given that most precincts don't have a fraud
problem.

As to your question, tha answer is that in areas with no history of
voter fraud, a signature is apparently sufficient. Don't fix it if it
isn't broken.
Orval Fairbairn
2008-09-16 18:20:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Orval Fairbairn
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Orval Fairbairn
When I lived in California, nobody checked ID when I voted. Is it any
wonder CA is Democrat?
When I moved to Florida, I was pleased that they checked ID when I voted
the first (and subsequent) time(s).
The ACORN types don't want voter ID because it inhibits their ability to
stuff ballot boxes and to get out the dead vote.
How stupid can you be.
Please explain. Why SHOULDN'T voters have to show positive ID before
voting?
The reason I called what you said was "stupid" is your comment about
stuffing ballot boxes and getting out the "dead vote". That really
is a stupid thing to say given that most precincts don't have a fraud
problem.
Except in several major cities, such as Chicago, New York, San
Francisco, Los Angeles, St. Louis -- to name a few.
Post by Bill Z.
As to your question, tha answer is that in areas with no history of
voter fraud, a signature is apparently sufficient. Don't fix it if it
isn't broken.
A voter picture ID (with citizenship/residency verification) is not that
much of a hardship, except for those intending to stuff ballot boxes.

Denial of the problem works, as long as the party in power controls both
the law enforcement, the courts and the legislature. It is one means of
assuring perpetuity of power.
--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.
Bill Z.
2008-09-16 19:47:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orval Fairbairn
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Orval Fairbairn
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Orval Fairbairn
When I lived in California, nobody checked ID when I voted. Is it any
wonder CA is Democrat?
When I moved to Florida, I was pleased that they checked ID when I voted
the first (and subsequent) time(s).
The ACORN types don't want voter ID because it inhibits their ability to
stuff ballot boxes and to get out the dead vote.
How stupid can you be.
Please explain. Why SHOULDN'T voters have to show positive ID before
voting?
The reason I called what you said was "stupid" is your comment about
stuffing ballot boxes and getting out the "dead vote". That really
is a stupid thing to say given that most precincts don't have a fraud
problem.
Except in several major cities, such as Chicago, New York, San
Francisco, Los Angeles, St. Louis -- to name a few.
Shear nonsense and lies - I live near SF and there has not been one
word in the press about ballot stuffing or voter fraud.

Ballot-stuffing is so last millennium. If you want to read about how
they do it today, try
<http://www.michiganmessenger.com/4076/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote>.
Or read about how poorer areas are systematically disenfranchised by
making them wait in line for many hours to vote while the people in
the rich precincts breeze right through. That's how you rig an
election these days.
Post by Orval Fairbairn
Post by Bill Z.
As to your question, tha answer is that in areas with no history of
voter fraud, a signature is apparently sufficient. Don't fix it if it
isn't broken.
A voter picture ID (with citizenship/residency verification) is not that
much of a hardship, except for those intending to stuff ballot boxes.
Denial of the problem works, as long as the party in power controls both
the law enforcement, the courts and the legislature. It is one means of
assuring perpetuity of power.
Conspiracy theory - there's no need to fix it if it isn't broken and
local election officials, with a little oversight, are capable of
making reasonable decisions.
Brian
2008-09-16 22:40:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Ballot-stuffing is so last millennium. If you want to read about how
they do it today, try
<http://www.michiganmessenger.com/4076/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote>.
Or read about how poorer areas are systematically disenfranchised by
making them wait in line for many hours to vote while the people in
the rich precincts breeze right through. That's how you rig an
election these days.
That's why some precincts in Philadelphia voted over 100% of
registered voters?
Bill Z.
2008-09-17 17:14:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian
Post by Bill Z.
Ballot-stuffing is so last millennium. If you want to read about how
they do it today, try
<http://www.michiganmessenger.com/4076/lose-your-house-lose-your-vote>.
Or read about how poorer areas are systematically disenfranchised by
making them wait in line for many hours to vote while the people in
the rich precincts breeze right through. That's how you rig an
election these days.
That's why some precincts in Philadelphia voted over 100% of
registered voters?
Note "some" and note one city. Ballot stuffing is simply not a
widespread problem. It really is a last millenium way of rigging
elections. We are a lot more sophisticated about how to do it
these days.

In those few precincts were there is a problem, you can hand check all
the signatures (around here, you have to sign your name and write your
street address when you vote). Furthermore, if you spot check a
random sample of 500 signatures, the probability that all will be
legitimate when there is 1% voter fraud is 0.6%. Meanwhile, checking
an ID doesn't protect you at all if someone can do a good job of
forging IDs.
Brian
2008-09-17 21:10:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Note "some" and note one city. Ballot stuffing is simply not a
widespread problem. It really is a last millenium way of rigging
elections. We are a lot more sophisticated about how to do it
these days.
It's one example in one city.
Post by Bill Z.
In those few precincts were there is a problem, you can hand check all
the signatures (around here, you have to sign your name and write your
street address when you vote). Furthermore, if you spot check a
random sample of 500 signatures, the probability that all will be
legitimate when there is 1% voter fraud is 0.6%. Meanwhile, checking
an ID doesn't protect you at all if someone can do a good job of
forging IDs.
It makes it more difficult. Nothing is foolproof. I'm also concerned
about absentee ballots in certain circumstances.
Bill Z.
2008-09-17 22:53:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian
Post by Bill Z.
Note "some" and note one city. Ballot stuffing is simply not a
widespread problem. It really is a last millenium way of rigging
elections. We are a lot more sophisticated about how to do it
these days.
It's one example in one city.
Nobody cares about "one example in one city" when that can be easily
handled by hand-checking signatures. Meanwhile, you have yet to
explain how you will reliably screen out forged IDs. You also have
to explain how you will prevent the rules for what sort of IDs are
acceptable being selectively enforced with a goal of limiting the
votes - legitimate votes - in precincts where voters tend to favor
a particular candidate.
Post by Brian
Post by Bill Z.
In those few precincts were there is a problem, you can hand check all
the signatures (around here, you have to sign your name and write your
street address when you vote). Furthermore, if you spot check a
random sample of 500 signatures, the probability that all will be
legitimate when there is 1% voter fraud is 0.6%. Meanwhile, checking
an ID doesn't protect you at all if someone can do a good job of
forging IDs.
It makes it more difficult. Nothing is foolproof. I'm also concerned
about absentee ballots in certain circumstances.
What makes you think that hand checking signatures is not an adequate
solution? And you have not shown why random sampling of ballots for
signature checking isn't a workable solution.
Brian
2008-09-19 00:25:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Nobody cares about "one example in one city" when that can be easily
handled by hand-checking signatures. Meanwhile, you have yet to
explain how you will reliably screen out forged IDs. You also have
to explain how you will prevent the rules for what sort of IDs are
acceptable being selectively enforced with a goal of limiting the
votes - legitimate votes - in precincts where voters tend to favor
a particular candidate.
A government issued ID that is free to those who can't afford it. It's
actually quite difficult for most citizens to exist without having one
anyway.
Post by Bill Z.
What makes you think that hand checking signatures is not an adequate
solution? And you have not shown why random sampling of ballots for
signature checking isn't a workable solution.
It's impractical. Checking thousands or millions of signatures is a
plan for disaster. What are you going to do, have handwriting analysts
verify all of those signatures and then there are court cases
challenging them?

It sounds like a plan ACORN would come up with similar to dumping huge
numbers of applications at the last minute so that the people have to
be certified within a very short period of time.
Bill Z.
2008-09-19 00:45:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian
Post by Bill Z.
Nobody cares about "one example in one city" when that can be easily
handled by hand-checking signatures. Meanwhile, you have yet to
explain how you will reliably screen out forged IDs. You also have
to explain how you will prevent the rules for what sort of IDs are
acceptable being selectively enforced with a goal of limiting the
votes - legitimate votes - in precincts where voters tend to favor
a particular candidate.
A government issued ID that is free to those who can't afford it. It's
actually quite difficult for most citizens to exist without having one
anyway.
Non sequitur. You didn't address the point being raised.
Post by Brian
Post by Bill Z.
What makes you think that hand checking signatures is not an adequate
solution? And you have not shown why random sampling of ballots for
signature checking isn't a workable solution.
It's impractical. Checking thousands or millions of signatures is a
plan for disaster. What are you going to do, have handwriting analysts
verify all of those signatures and then there are court cases
challenging them?
Sigh. Pretending you didn't read the comments I made about statistical
sampling just convinces me that you are an idiot.
Post by Brian
It sounds like a plan ACORN would come up with similar to dumping huge
numbers of applications at the last minute so that the people have to
be certified within a very short period of time.
You just showed a complete ignorance of probability and statistics
and are ignoring the points I raised.

I'm not going to waste my time on yet another usenet idiot who
ignores what you say and pretends something altogether different
was intended.
Brian
2008-09-20 00:19:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Brian
Post by Bill Z.
Nobody cares about "one example in one city" when that can be easily
handled by hand-checking signatures. Meanwhile, you have yet to
explain how you will reliably screen out forged IDs. You also have
to explain how you will prevent the rules for what sort of IDs are
acceptable being selectively enforced with a goal of limiting the
votes - legitimate votes - in precincts where voters tend to favor
a particular candidate.
A government issued ID that is free to those who can't afford it. It's
actually quite difficult for most citizens to exist without having one
anyway.
Non sequitur. You didn't address the point being raised.
Post by Brian
Post by Bill Z.
What makes you think that hand checking signatures is not an adequate
solution? And you have not shown why random sampling of ballots for
signature checking isn't a workable solution.
It's impractical. Checking thousands or millions of signatures is a
plan for disaster. What are you going to do, have handwriting analysts
verify all of those signatures and then there are court cases
challenging them?
Sigh. Pretending you didn't read the comments I made about statistical
sampling just convinces me that you are an idiot.
Post by Brian
It sounds like a plan ACORN would come up with similar to dumping huge
numbers of applications at the last minute so that the people have to
be certified within a very short period of time.
You just showed a complete ignorance of probability and statistics
and are ignoring the points I raised.
I'm not going to waste my time on yet another usenet idiot who
ignores what you say and pretends something altogether different
was intended.
I did answer your questions. You just refuse to see any other
viewpoint. Any signatures, samples or all of them, will be legally
challenged. And you didn't answer about ACORN.

You're the idiot.

Gary J Carter
2008-09-16 14:46:33 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:56:34 -0400, Orval Fairbairn
Post by Orval Fairbairn
Post by Gary J Carter
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:50:17 -0700 (PDT), kujebak
Post by kujebak
It prevents one from voting as someone else ;-)
Post by Orval Fairbairn
What's wrong with a voter having ID confirming that (s)he is who (s)he
claims to be and is a US citizen?
--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.
We need a national set of guidelines for all elections. If the state
does not comply or is found in foul of those guidelines, they loose
their electoral votes for that election. National election processes
should be identical from state to state. Computers should be allowed
only to register. All ballots should be paper and counted that way.
Rigging an election is or should be a treasonous offense.
AMEN!
When I lived in California, nobody checked ID when I voted. Is it any
wonder CA is Democrat?
When I moved to Florida, I was pleased that they checked ID when I voted
the first (and subsequent) time(s).
The ACORN types don't want voter ID because it inhibits their ability to
stuff ballot boxes and to get out the dead vote.
Remember what happened in Florida and again in Ohio? I wonder which
states will be part of the farce in this election? You are also
correct in that democrats were caught letting dead people vote. Our
electional system could use a serious overhaul.
Gary J Carter
2008-09-15 21:00:41 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:46:57 -0400, Orval Fairbairn
Post by Orval Fairbairn
What's wrong with a voter having ID confirming that (s)he is who (s)he
claims to be and is a US citizen?
What's wrong is starting this now, 6 weeks before a major election. If
you support this, you know that.
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