Discussion:
Cut mental health funding now!
(too old to reply)
crack baby
2006-08-13 15:59:21 UTC
Permalink
I am advocating for a sharp reduction in mental health spending. While we
hear constant calls for spending to be increased, I'm going to argue that
spending be reduced to the minimum amount needed to treat legitimately
psychotic people who pose a danger to others.

My experience involves a schizophrenic friend off his meds and my
brother who suffered a severe manic psychosis from crystal meth. In
both cases I drove them all over town looking for some way to get a
psychiatrist to see them and give them meds. The mental hospital
refused to admit my brother, and even though my friend was a regular
patient at the mental hospital, it still was difficult and very
inconvenient to get them to let him see a doctor. My family finally
had to petition for involuntary commitment, and they held him for two
weeks before releasing him (they were going to release him after the
first week until he blabbered that he could talk to dead people during
his judicial review hearing).

So I should be advocating INCREASED public spending on mental health.
But then I heard about what is happening in Oceania (I mean the UK),
where the lavishly-funded National Health Service also pays for mental
health "treatment" and as a result just about every annoying behavior
humans might exhibit is re-defined as "antisocial behaviour" and the
offender sentenced to counseling or therapy in a re-education centre.
Now they have begun incarcerating people for being too fat, on the
grounds that their unhealthy eating habits qualifies as posing a threat
to oneself and ground for involuntary commitment in a NHS mental
hospital.

We already see a scenario looming here in America, though we don't yet
have national health care. Among those of us lucky to have health
insurance of any type, there is usually a disparity between authorized
physical and mental treatments. Mental-health advocates argue that
mental disorders are just as debilitating as physical disorders and
should therefore be equally covered by insurance plans, and of course
by public programs like Medicaid. But unlike physical disorders that
can be seen, x-rayed, chemically-tested, etc., mental disorders are
rather intangible and aside from the patient's testimony there really
is no evidence that they exist or that any alleged treatment actually
worked.

My fear is that mandatory equal coverage will result in psychologists
sucking billions of dollars out of the system to the detriment of
people with real physical ailments. Sick people will wait longer and
longer for vital tests, treatments, surgeries, etc. because the
system now must pay tens of thousands of psycholalagists $500/hour to
perform the essential service of listening to millions of fuckups
bitch about their childhoods and/or dead housepets. And if you combine
socialized medicine with equal coverage, you wind up like Great Britain
where the benevolent socialist nanny state can afford to lock you up
for annoying them by being too fucking fat. So now my philosophy is
that allowing my utterly insane brother to roam loose is preferable to
allowing the state to lock me up for being too fat, not eating my
veggies, and not flossing properly after meals.

------------------------------------------------------------
"Thoughtcrime does not entail death: thoughtcrime IS death."
-- 1984
------------------------------------------------------------
Goldcoastbeeper
2006-08-13 21:31:35 UTC
Permalink
this sounds like an issue with how the system is run, not how much funding
there is
Post by crack baby
I am advocating for a sharp reduction in mental health spending. While we
hear constant calls for spending to be increased, I'm going to argue that
spending be reduced to the minimum amount needed to treat legitimately
psychotic people who pose a danger to others.
My experience involves a schizophrenic friend off his meds and my
brother who suffered a severe manic psychosis from crystal meth. In
both cases I drove them all over town looking for some way to get a
psychiatrist to see them and give them meds. The mental hospital
refused to admit my brother, and even though my friend was a regular
patient at the mental hospital, it still was difficult and very
inconvenient to get them to let him see a doctor. My family finally
had to petition for involuntary commitment, and they held him for two
weeks before releasing him (they were going to release him after the
first week until he blabbered that he could talk to dead people during
his judicial review hearing).
So I should be advocating INCREASED public spending on mental health.
But then I heard about what is happening in Oceania (I mean the UK),
where the lavishly-funded National Health Service also pays for mental
health "treatment" and as a result just about every annoying behavior
humans might exhibit is re-defined as "antisocial behaviour" and the
offender sentenced to counseling or therapy in a re-education centre.
Now they have begun incarcerating people for being too fat, on the
grounds that their unhealthy eating habits qualifies as posing a threat
to oneself and ground for involuntary commitment in a NHS mental
hospital.
We already see a scenario looming here in America, though we don't yet
have national health care. Among those of us lucky to have health
insurance of any type, there is usually a disparity between authorized
physical and mental treatments. Mental-health advocates argue that
mental disorders are just as debilitating as physical disorders and
should therefore be equally covered by insurance plans, and of course
by public programs like Medicaid. But unlike physical disorders that
can be seen, x-rayed, chemically-tested, etc., mental disorders are
rather intangible and aside from the patient's testimony there really
is no evidence that they exist or that any alleged treatment actually
worked.
My fear is that mandatory equal coverage will result in psychologists
sucking billions of dollars out of the system to the detriment of
people with real physical ailments. Sick people will wait longer and
longer for vital tests, treatments, surgeries, etc. because the
system now must pay tens of thousands of psycholalagists $500/hour to
perform the essential service of listening to millions of fuckups
bitch about their childhoods and/or dead housepets. And if you combine
socialized medicine with equal coverage, you wind up like Great Britain
where the benevolent socialist nanny state can afford to lock you up
for annoying them by being too fucking fat. So now my philosophy is
that allowing my utterly insane brother to roam loose is preferable to
allowing the state to lock me up for being too fat, not eating my
veggies, and not flossing properly after meals.
------------------------------------------------------------
"Thoughtcrime does not entail death: thoughtcrime IS death."
-- 1984
------------------------------------------------------------
pig
2006-09-03 18:05:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by crack baby
and as a result just about every annoying behavior
humans might exhibit is re-defined as "antisocial behaviour" and the
offender sentenced to counseling or therapy in a re-education centre.
i know hey, its very bad like this in australia, where you have people
being locked up for every reason too. If a teenager rebels from his over
strict controlling parents he is easily locked up involuntarily...

very sad, i have always argued that the problem is not that its under
funded contrary to popular beleif. You are right, the greedy fucks have too
much cash and they are wasting it and not treating those who have real
problems.
Goldcoastbeeper
2006-09-03 23:58:48 UTC
Permalink
so you're working under the idea that it would be better campain to cut the
funding rather than campain to reform the services and made them more
effective?
Post by pig
Post by crack baby
and as a result just about every annoying behavior
humans might exhibit is re-defined as "antisocial behaviour" and the
offender sentenced to counseling or therapy in a re-education centre.
i know hey, its very bad like this in australia, where you have people
being locked up for every reason too. If a teenager rebels from his over
strict controlling parents he is easily locked up involuntarily...
very sad, i have always argued that the problem is not that its under
funded contrary to popular beleif. You are right, the greedy fucks have too
much cash and they are wasting it and not treating those who have real
problems.
Rick Morris
2006-09-04 15:21:19 UTC
Permalink
His argument must be that jails can do the job just as well?

On 9/3/06 6:58 PM, in article
Post by Goldcoastbeeper
so you're working under the idea that it would be better campain to cut the
funding rather than campain to reform the services and made them more
effective?
Post by pig
Post by crack baby
and as a result just about every annoying behavior
humans might exhibit is re-defined as "antisocial behaviour" and the
offender sentenced to counseling or therapy in a re-education centre.
i know hey, its very bad like this in australia, where you have people
being locked up for every reason too. If a teenager rebels from his over
strict controlling parents he is easily locked up involuntarily...
very sad, i have always argued that the problem is not that its under
funded contrary to popular beleif. You are right, the greedy fucks have too
much cash and they are wasting it and not treating those who have real
problems.
x***@hotmail.com
2006-09-04 15:34:28 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 03 Sep 2006 23:58:48 GMT, "Goldcoastbeeper"
Post by Goldcoastbeeper
so you're working under the idea that it would be better campain to cut the
funding rather than campain to reform the services and made them more
effective?
Sure. Overfunding is a major cause of people wanting to "expand" their
organizational powers into frivolous areas so that the gravy train can
continue. Happens all over.

The DSM IV itself has many of these frivolous classifications also. All signs
of a bloated discipline that needs to have its funding cut so it can get rid
of the deadwood and concentrate on things it does best (that is, assuming that
there is something that it actually does well). Once "coffee nerves" has made
it into the DSM (whic it has; Sec. 305.90, as well as the inability to sleep
after drinking too much coffee, Sec. 292.89) along with shyness (299.80), and
being clumsy (315.4), I think that it is time that the whole profession
underwent a major re-structuring and downsizing. It is quite obvious there are
too many of them with not enough important things to do.

XYZ
Post by Goldcoastbeeper
Post by pig
Post by crack baby
and as a result just about every annoying behavior
humans might exhibit is re-defined as "antisocial behaviour" and the
offender sentenced to counseling or therapy in a re-education centre.
i know hey, its very bad like this in australia, where you have people
being locked up for every reason too. If a teenager rebels from his over
strict controlling parents he is easily locked up involuntarily...
very sad, i have always argued that the problem is not that its under
funded contrary to popular beleif. You are right, the greedy fucks have too
much cash and they are wasting it and not treating those who have real
problems.
pig
2006-10-01 19:22:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by x***@hotmail.com
On Sun, 03 Sep 2006 23:58:48 GMT, "Goldcoastbeeper"
Post by Goldcoastbeeper
so you're working under the idea that it would be better campain to
cut the funding rather than campain to reform the services and made
them more effective?
Sure. Overfunding is a major cause of people wanting to "expand" their
organizational powers into frivolous areas so that the gravy train can
continue. Happens all over.
The DSM IV itself has many of these frivolous classifications also.
All signs of a bloated discipline that needs to have its funding cut
so it can get rid of the deadwood and concentrate on things it does
best (that is, assuming that there is something that it actually does
well). Once "coffee nerves" has made it into the DSM (whic it has;
Sec. 305.90, as well as the inability to sleep after drinking too much
coffee, Sec. 292.89) along with shyness (299.80), and being clumsy
(315.4), I think that it is time that the whole profession underwent a
major re-structuring and downsizing. It is quite obvious there are too
many of them with not enough important things to do.
XYZ
Post by Goldcoastbeeper
Post by pig
Post by crack baby
and as a result just about every annoying behavior
humans might exhibit is re-defined as "antisocial behaviour" and
the offender sentenced to counseling or therapy in a re-education
centre.
i know hey, its very bad like this in australia, where you have
people being locked up for every reason too. If a teenager rebels
from his over strict controlling parents he is easily locked up
involuntarily...
very sad, i have always argued that the problem is not that its
under funded contrary to popular beleif. You are right, the greedy
fucks have too
much cash and they are wasting it and not treating those who have
real problems.
the history of the DSM and the politics behind why and when "mental
illness'" were added, deleted or re-added is rather entertaining. Once
you browse through a DSM you realise there is not one sane person on the
planet according to this book. LOL. they actually sit around and vote on
which mental illness to include. like an old boys club. rather funny.
crack baby
2006-09-16 19:31:32 UTC
Permalink
Goldcoastbeeper wrote...
Post by Goldcoastbeeper
so you're working under the idea that it would be better campain to cut the
funding rather than campain to reform the services and made them more
effective?
The system can't be reformed. In American political science class I
learned that once an agency is created and given an initial budget,
it must spend the entire budget or have its funding reduced in the
next government budget. If the agency is some mental health program,
the program must spend ever-increasing amounts of money to avoid
budget cuts, and that is easily achieved by creating new patients to
treat. If the $20 billion the program was given to treat bipolar
and schizophrenic patients isn't used because there aren't enough
schizophrenics and bipolars to require $20 billion in treatment
services, new patients must be found to eat up the remainder of the
budget so next year the program can get another $20 billion plus an
increase (which will then require finding even more new patients to
eat up to qualify for the next budget increase). As a result, we
get an endless stream of new mental "disorders," all of which are
approaching epidemic status and require increased gov't funding. If
you think you can reform this sort of thing I'd like to hear how.
pig
2006-10-01 19:23:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by crack baby
Goldcoastbeeper wrote...
Post by Goldcoastbeeper
so you're working under the idea that it would be better campain to
cut the funding rather than campain to reform the services and made
them more effective?
The system can't be reformed. In American political science class I
learned that once an agency is created and given an initial budget,
it must spend the entire budget or have its funding reduced in the
next government budget. If the agency is some mental health program,
the program must spend ever-increasing amounts of money to avoid
budget cuts, and that is easily achieved by creating new patients to
treat. If the $20 billion the program was given to treat bipolar
and schizophrenic patients isn't used because there aren't enough
schizophrenics and bipolars to require $20 billion in treatment
services, new patients must be found to eat up the remainder of the
budget so next year the program can get another $20 billion plus an
increase (which will then require finding even more new patients to
eat up to qualify for the next budget increase). As a result, we
get an endless stream of new mental "disorders," all of which are
approaching epidemic status and require increased gov't funding. If
you think you can reform this sort of thing I'd like to hear how.
exactly.
Goldcoastbeeper
2006-10-02 00:35:16 UTC
Permalink
Things have and will continue to change. We have a system that is changing
all the time but perhaps just too slow to get where we want. I had a chat
with our government MP for health last week at a conference and he mentioned
that there are going to be more community based support services as an
alternative to hostpital admission. I think this is a positive change but it
does cost a hell of a lot more to provide staff in someones home than a
couple of nurses in a psych ward. I still think having a budget to try and
do something is better than having no budget and nothing done. For example,
our local mental health support groups are funded by the mental health
budget and I think they are a good thing for many people. I like going there
occasionaly for a sypathetic ear. If that funding was cut I think it would
be a bad thing. The system would change by having no supports. Because the
'system' is so huge is there any specific example you can give demonstrating
how it has failed and could be done differently? We are always campaining
change so I'd love to here your ideas. I agree that they do need to spend
there budget but I doubt they ever have difficulty finding clients. They do
always have a choice about what types of programs they spend it on. Perhaps
a change of governemt may help things along.
Post by pig
Post by crack baby
Goldcoastbeeper wrote...
Post by Goldcoastbeeper
so you're working under the idea that it would be better campain to
cut the funding rather than campain to reform the services and made
them more effective?
The system can't be reformed. In American political science class I
learned that once an agency is created and given an initial budget,
it must spend the entire budget or have its funding reduced in the
next government budget. If the agency is some mental health program,
the program must spend ever-increasing amounts of money to avoid
budget cuts, and that is easily achieved by creating new patients to
treat. If the $20 billion the program was given to treat bipolar
and schizophrenic patients isn't used because there aren't enough
schizophrenics and bipolars to require $20 billion in treatment
services, new patients must be found to eat up the remainder of the
budget so next year the program can get another $20 billion plus an
increase (which will then require finding even more new patients to
eat up to qualify for the next budget increase). As a result, we
get an endless stream of new mental "disorders," all of which are
approaching epidemic status and require increased gov't funding. If
you think you can reform this sort of thing I'd like to hear how.
exactly.
v***@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com
2006-10-21 17:37:27 UTC
Permalink
Given that 80% of major physical ailments are self-inflicted (including
cancer and heart disease) you need to wonder if psychiatric care is not
preventive medicine. When I was a college senior, Christian Barnard gave up
heart surgery and became a plastic surgeon on these grounds. But the problem
with funding psychiatric care is one of incentives. How do you measure the
effectiveness or even the delivery of "talking"? How do you make sure the
incredible power an effective psychiatrist has over a patient is not misused?
There really are no answers to this. Perhaps (my humble suggestion) the
answer is to teach psychiatry in the (elementary) schools so people can treat
themselves. Given that the most productive minds I know are so because of
their own ability to understand and harness their own minds (rather than some
"gift" of genius) I believe such training would be marvelously productive
(though perhaps, initially socially disruptive).

- = -
Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Reagan Mozart Pindus BioStrategist
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Yellary Clinton, Yellalot Spitzer & Angrew Cuomo: Nasty Together]
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