Discussion:
Are Obama's Own Generals Plotting to Undermine His Exit Strategy for Iraq?
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Paul Simon
2009-02-15 16:43:37 UTC
Permalink
Are Obama's Own Generals Plotting to Undermine His Exit Strategy for
Iraq?

By Gareth Porter, IPS News. Posted February 7, 2009.

A network of senior military officers appears to be engaged in an
effort to mobilize public opinion against Obama's decision to leave
Iraq.

CENTCOM commander Gen. David Petraeus, supported by Defense Secretary
Robert Gates, tried to convince President Barack Obama that he had to
back down from his campaign pledge to withdraw all U.S. combat troops
from Iraq within 16 months at an Oval Office meeting Jan. 21.

But Obama informed Gates, Petraeus, and Joint Chiefs Chairman Adm.
Mike Mullen that he wasn't convinced and that he wanted Gates and the
military leaders to come back quickly with a detailed 16-month plan,
according to two sources who have talked with participants in the
meeting.

Obama's decision to override Petraeus' recommendation has not ended
the conflict between the president and senior military officers over
troop withdrawal, however. There are indications that Petraeus and his
allies in the military and the Pentagon, including Gen. Ray Odierno,
now the top commander in Iraq, have already begun to try to pressure
Obama to change his withdrawal policy.

A network of senior military officers is also reported to be preparing
to support Petraeus and Odierno by mobilizing public opinion against
Obama's decision.

Petraeus was visibly unhappy when he left the Oval Office, according
to one of the sources. A White House staffer present at the meeting
was quoted by the source as saying, "Petraeus made the mistake of
thinking he was still dealing with George Bush instead of with Barack
Obama."

Petraeus, Gates, and Odierno had hoped to sell Obama on a plan that
they formulated in the final months of the Bush administration that
aimed at getting around a key provision of the U.S.-Iraqi withdrawal
agreement signed envisioned re-categorizing large numbers of combat
troops as support troops. That subterfuge was by the United States
last November while ostensibly allowing Obama to deliver on his
campaign promise.

Gates and Mullen had discussed the relabeling scheme with Obama as
part of the Petraeus-Odierno plan for withdrawal they had presented to
him in mid-December, according to a Dec. 18 New York Times story.

Obama decided against making any public reference to his order to the
military to draft a detailed 16-month combat troop withdrawal policy,
apparently so that he can announce his decision only after consulting
with his field commanders and the Pentagon.

The first clear indication of the intention of Petraeus, Odierno, and
their allies to try to get Obama to amend his decision came on Jan. 29
when the New York Times published an interview with Odierno,
ostensibly based on the premise that Obama had indicated that he was
"open to alternatives."

The Times reported that Odierno had "developed a plan that would move
slower than Mr. Obama's campaign timetable" and had suggested in an
interview "it might take the rest of the year to determine exactly
when United States forces could be drawn down significantly."

The opening argument by the Petraeus-Odierno faction against Obama's
withdrawal policy was revealed the evening of the Jan. 21 meeting when
retired Army Gen. Jack Keane, one of the authors of the Bush troop
surge policy and a close political ally and mentor of Gen. Petraeus,
appeared on the NewsHour with Jim Lehrer to comment on Obama's pledge
on Iraq combat troop withdrawal.

Keane, who had certainly been briefed by Petraeus on the outcome of
the Oval Office meeting, argued that implementing such a withdrawal of
combat troops would "increase the risk rather dramatically over the 16
months." He asserted that it would jeopardize the "stable political
situation in Iraq" and called that risk "not acceptable."

The assertion that Obama's withdrawal policy threatens the gains
allegedly won by the Bush surge and Petraeus' strategy in Iraq will
apparently be the theme of the campaign that military opponents are
now planning.

Keane, the Army vice-chief of staff from 1999 to 2003, has ties to a
network of active and retired four-star Army generals, and since
Obama's Jan. 21 order on the 16-month withdrawal plan, some of the
retired four-star generals in that network have begun discussing a
campaign to blame Obama's troop withdrawal from Iraq for the ultimate
collapse of the political "stability" that they expect to follow U.S.
withdrawal, according to a military source familiar with the network's
plans.

The source says the network, which includes senior active duty
officers in the Pentagon, will begin making the argument to
journalists covering the Pentagon that Obama's withdrawal policy risks
an eventual collapse in Iraq. That would raise the political cost to
Obama of sticking to his withdrawal policy.

If Obama does not change the policy, according to the source, they
hope to have planted the seeds of a future political narrative blaming
his withdrawal policy for the "collapse" they expect in an Iraq
without U.S. troops.

That line seems likely to appeal to reporters covering the Iraq troop
withdrawal issue. Ever since Obama's inauguration, media coverage of
the issue has treated Obama' s 16-month withdrawal proposal as a
concession to antiwar sentiment which will have to be adjusted to the
"realities" as defined by the advice to Obama from Gates, Petraeus,
and Odierno.

Ever since he began working on the troop surge, Keane has been the
central figure manipulating policy in order to keep as many U.S.
troops in Iraq as possible. It was Keane who got Vice President Dick
Cheney to push for Petraeus as top commander in Iraq in late 2006 when
the existing commander, Gen. George W. Casey, did not support the
troop surge.

It was Keane who protected Petraeus' interests in ensuring the maximum
number of troops in Iraq against the efforts by other military leaders
to accelerate troop withdrawal in 2007 and 2008. As Bob Woodward
reported in The War Within, Keane persuaded President George W. Bush
to override the concerns of the Joint Chiefs of Staff about the stress
of prolonged U.S. occupation of Iraq on the U.S. Army and Marine Corps
as well its impact on the worsening situation in Afghanistan.

Bush agreed in September 2007 to guarantee that Petraeus would have as
many troops as he needed for as long as wanted, according to
Woodward's account.

Keane had also prevailed on Gates in April 2008 to make Petraeus the
new commander of CENTCOM. Keane argued that keeping Petraeus in the
field was the best insurance against a Democratic administration
reversing the Bush policy toward Iraq.

Keane had operated on the assumption that a Democratic president would
probably not take the political risk of rejecting Petraeus'
recommendation on the pace of troop withdrawal from Iraq. Woodward
quotes Keane as telling Gates, "Let's assume we have a Democratic
administration and they want to pull this thing out quickly, and now
they have to deal with General Petraeus and General Odierno. There
will be a price to be paid to override them."

Obama told Petraeus in Baghdad last July that, if elected, he would
regard the overall health of the U.S. Army and Marine Corps and the
situation in Afghanistan as more important than Petraeus' obvious
interest in maximizing U.S. troop strength in Iraq, according to Time
magazine's Joe Klein.

But judging from Petraeus' shock at Obama's Jan. 21 decision, he had
not taken Obama's previous rejection of his arguments seriously. That
miscalculation suggests that Petraeus had begun to accept Keane's
assertion that a newly elected Democratic president would not dare to
override his policy recommendation on troops in Iraq.
g***@amusenet.com
2009-02-15 17:36:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Simon
Are Obama's Own Generals Plotting to Undermine His Exit Strategy for
Iraq?
By Gareth Porter, IPS News. Posted February 7, 2009.
A network of senior military officers appears to be engaged in an
effort to mobilize public opinion against Obama's decision to leave
Iraq. ...
Yeah -- as the field grade types used to say in Viet Nam, "It's a
shitty war, but it's the only war we've got."

That is ameliorated somewhat by noting that though knocking off Saddam
in Iraq was easy (the generals and Dubya screwed up the aftermath on
their own), the Afghanistan/NW Pakistan problem will not be easy.
hal lillywhite
2009-02-15 17:43:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Simon
A network of senior military officers appears to be engaged in an
effort to mobilize public opinion against Obama's decision to leave
Iraq.
CENTCOM commander Gen. David Petraeus, supported by Defense Secretary
Robert Gates, tried to convince President Barack Obama that he had to
back down from his campaign pledge to withdraw all U.S. combat troops
from Iraq within 16 months at an Oval Office meeting Jan. 21.
How terrible! Experts in the subject, people who have been there (for
more than a brief visit), people who saw what worked and what didn't,
have the temerity to give advice to a politician! Obviously that
cannot be allowed.
g***@amusenet.com
2009-02-15 17:57:36 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 09:43:55 -0800 (PST), hal lillywhite
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Paul Simon
A network of senior military officers appears to be engaged in an
effort to mobilize public opinion against Obama's decision to leave
Iraq.
CENTCOM commander Gen. David Petraeus, supported by Defense Secretary
Robert Gates, tried to convince President Barack Obama that he had to
back down from his campaign pledge to withdraw all U.S. combat troops
from Iraq within 16 months at an Oval Office meeting Jan. 21.
How terrible! Experts in the subject, people who have been there (for
more than a brief visit), people who saw what worked and what didn't,
have the temerity to give advice to a politician! Obviously that
cannot be allowed.
Much of what The Generals said would work didn't.

There comes a point where The Surge doesn't matter any more, because
there's nothing to surge against. So the game plan must change.

If the only tool you have is a hammer, pretty soon all problems start
to look like nails.

Generals are like that.
hal lillywhite
2009-02-15 18:03:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 09:43:55 -0800 (PST), hal lillywhite
Post by Paul Simon
A network of senior military officers appears to be engaged in an
effort to mobilize public opinion against Obama's decision to leave
Iraq.
CENTCOM commander Gen. David Petraeus, supported by Defense Secretary
Robert Gates, tried to convince President Barack Obama that he had to
back down from his campaign pledge to withdraw all U.S. combat troops
from Iraq within 16 months at an Oval Office meeting Jan. 21.
How terrible!  Experts in the subject, people who have been there (for
more than a brief visit), people who saw what worked and what didn't,
have the temerity to give advice to a politician!  Obviously that
cannot be allowed.
Much of what The Generals said would work didn't.
We're talking about Petraeus here, the guy on whose watch things
really started to improve.

Now I would not want to swallow everything military people take
uncritically. However it is stupid to imply that they should not be
giving advice or that the president should not pay attention. One of
the things I hammer on as a decision-making consultant is the value of
getting a variety of opinions and information .
g***@amusenet.com
2009-02-15 18:08:19 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 10:03:07 -0800 (PST), hal lillywhite
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 09:43:55 -0800 (PST), hal lillywhite
Post by Paul Simon
A network of senior military officers appears to be engaged in an
effort to mobilize public opinion against Obama's decision to leave
Iraq.
CENTCOM commander Gen. David Petraeus, supported by Defense Secretary
Robert Gates, tried to convince President Barack Obama that he had to
back down from his campaign pledge to withdraw all U.S. combat troops
from Iraq within 16 months at an Oval Office meeting Jan. 21.
How terrible!  Experts in the subject, people who have been there (for
more than a brief visit), people who saw what worked and what didn't,
have the temerity to give advice to a politician!  Obviously that
cannot be allowed.
Much of what The Generals said would work didn't.
We're talking about Petraeus here, the guy on whose watch things
really started to improve.
Petraeus is a plural proper noun?

HooNoo?
Post by hal lillywhite
Now I would not want to swallow everything military people take
uncritically.
Really? Dubya should have taken that advice early on. How come you
didn't suggest it to him when it would have done some good?
Post by hal lillywhite
However it is stupid to imply that they should not be
giving advice or that the president should not pay attention.
The advice of generals is but one data point. There are many others
to consider as well.
Post by hal lillywhite
One of the things I hammer on as a decision-making consultant is the value of
getting a variety of opinions and information .
Do you also discuss a Clear description of what you plan to
accomplish, and to discuss the potential application of the Law of
Unintended Consequences as well?

Dubya needed your skills when he was first elected, when his
determination to invade Iraq was already well in hand.

Too bad you weren't there.

He did have some generals at the time who gave him some good advice,
but oddly enough wasn't listening to them, but was listening to
Rumsfield, Cheney, Perle and Wolfowitz -- exactly None of whom were
generals or even close.

Strange, idnit?
hal lillywhite
2009-02-15 19:13:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
Post by hal lillywhite
We're talking about Petraeus here, the guy on whose watch things
really started to improve.
Petraeus is a plural proper noun?
If that's the worst you can find to criticize in my posts then I'm
doing pretty well.
Post by g***@amusenet.com
Post by hal lillywhite
Now I would not want to swallow everything military people take
uncritically.
Really?  Dubya should have taken that advice early on.  How come you
didn't suggest it to him when it would have done some good?
I wasn't in this business then. Not that most politicians would
listen to such anyway.
Post by g***@amusenet.com
Post by hal lillywhite
However it is stupid to imply that they should not be
giving advice or that the president should not pay attention.
The advice of generals is but one data point.  There are many others
to consider as well.
Exactly what I said, just different words.
Post by g***@amusenet.com
Post by hal lillywhite
One of the things I hammer on as a decision-making consultant is the value of
getting a variety of opinions and information .
Do you also discuss a Clear description of what you plan to
accomplish, and to discuss the potential application of the Law of
Unintended Consequences as well?
Yup. All that is important. That's one advantage of getting outside
advice, we all have human tendencies, one of which is to focus on only
part of the problem, only some of the likely results etc. An outside
opinion can help avoid those problems.
g***@amusenet.com
2009-02-15 22:54:26 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 11:13:07 -0800 (PST), hal lillywhite
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by g***@amusenet.com
Post by hal lillywhite
We're talking about Petraeus here, the guy on whose watch things
really started to improve.
Petraeus is a plural proper noun?
If that's the worst you can find to criticize in my posts then I'm
doing pretty well.
It was meant to clarify. Petraeus is one general -- not many.
LDosser
2009-02-16 00:52:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 10:03:07 -0800 (PST), hal lillywhite
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 09:43:55 -0800 (PST), hal lillywhite
Post by Paul Simon
A network of senior military officers appears to be engaged in an
effort to mobilize public opinion against Obama's decision to leave
Iraq.
CENTCOM commander Gen. David Petraeus, supported by Defense Secretary
Robert Gates, tried to convince President Barack Obama that he had to
back down from his campaign pledge to withdraw all U.S. combat troops
from Iraq within 16 months at an Oval Office meeting Jan. 21.
How terrible! Experts in the subject, people who have been there (for
more than a brief visit), people who saw what worked and what didn't,
have the temerity to give advice to a politician! Obviously that
cannot be allowed.
Much of what The Generals said would work didn't.
We're talking about Petraeus here, the guy on whose watch things
really started to improve.
Petraeus is a plural proper noun?
HooNoo?
Post by hal lillywhite
Now I would not want to swallow everything military people take
uncritically.
Really? Dubya should have taken that advice early on. How come you
didn't suggest it to him when it would have done some good?
Post by hal lillywhite
However it is stupid to imply that they should not be
giving advice or that the president should not pay attention.
The advice of generals is but one data point. There are many others
to consider as well.
Post by hal lillywhite
One of the things I hammer on as a decision-making consultant is the value of
getting a variety of opinions and information .
Do you also discuss a Clear description of what you plan to
accomplish, and to discuss the potential application of the Law of
Unintended Consequences as well?
Dubya needed your skills when he was first elected, when his
determination to invade Iraq was already well in hand.
Too bad you weren't there.
He did have some generals at the time who gave him some good advice,
but oddly enough wasn't listening to them, but was listening to
Rumsfield, Cheney, Perle and Wolfowitz -- exactly None of whom were
generals or even close.
Strange, idnit?
STILL WHINING!! Amazing!
lein
2009-02-16 19:40:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 10:03:07 -0800 (PST), hal lillywhite
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 09:43:55 -0800 (PST), hal lillywhite
Post by Paul Simon
A network of senior military officers appears to be engaged in an
effort to mobilize public opinion against Obama's decision to leave
Iraq.
CENTCOM commander Gen. David Petraeus, supported by Defense Secretary
Robert Gates, tried to convince President Barack Obama that he had to
back down from his campaign pledge to withdraw all U.S. combat troops
from Iraq within 16 months at an Oval Office meeting Jan. 21.
How terrible!  Experts in the subject, people who have been there (for
more than a brief visit), people who saw what worked and what didn't,
have the temerity to give advice to a politician!  Obviously that
cannot be allowed.
Much of what The Generals said would work didn't.
We're talking about Petraeus here, the guy on whose watch things
really started to improve.
Petraeus is a plural proper noun?
HooNoo?
Post by hal lillywhite
Now I would not want to swallow everything military people take
uncritically.
Really?  Dubya should have taken that advice early on.  How come you
didn't suggest it to him when it would have done some good?
BUT BUT BUT Bush did it too.
Post by g***@amusenet.com
Post by hal lillywhite
However it is stupid to imply that they should not be
giving advice or that the president should not pay attention.
The advice of generals is but one data point.  There are many others
to consider as well.
Post by hal lillywhite
One of the things I hammer on as a decision-making consultant is the value of
getting a variety of opinions and information .
Do you also discuss a Clear description of what you plan to
accomplish, and to discuss the potential application of the Law of
Unintended Consequences as well?
Dubya needed your skills when he was first elected, when his
determination to invade Iraq was already well in hand.
BUT BUT BUT Bush did it too
Post by g***@amusenet.com
Too bad you weren't there.
He did have some generals at the time who gave him some good advice,
but oddly enough wasn't listening to them, but was listening to
Rumsfield, Cheney, Perle and Wolfowitz -- exactly None of whom were
generals or even close.
Strange, idnit?
You still got that Bush derangement syndrome. Better catch up cause
your guy is on the clock.
Bill Shatzer
2009-02-15 20:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 09:43:55 -0800 (PST), hal lillywhite
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Paul Simon
A network of senior military officers appears to be engaged in an
effort to mobilize public opinion against Obama's decision to leave
Iraq.
CENTCOM commander Gen. David Petraeus, supported by Defense Secretary
Robert Gates, tried to convince President Barack Obama that he had to
back down from his campaign pledge to withdraw all U.S. combat troops
from Iraq within 16 months at an Oval Office meeting Jan. 21.
How terrible! Experts in the subject, people who have been there (for
more than a brief visit), people who saw what worked and what didn't,
have the temerity to give advice to a politician! Obviously that
cannot be allowed.
Much of what The Generals said would work didn't.
We're talking about Petraeus here, the guy on whose watch things
really started to improve.
Now I would not want to swallow everything military people take
uncritically. However it is stupid to imply that they should not be
giving advice or that the president should not pay attention. One of
the things I hammer on as a decision-making consultant is the value of
getting a variety of opinions and information .
An example Obama's seems willing to emulate.

Unlike his predecessor in office who seemed uninterested in receiving
advice contrary to his predilections.

Peace and justice,
neural highway
2009-02-16 00:01:51 UTC
Permalink
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure

You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.

It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.

Peace and justice,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Post by Bill Shatzer
An example Obama's seems willing to emulate.
Unlike his predecessor in office who seemed uninterested in receiving
advice contrary to his predilections.
Peace and justice,
h***@juno.com
2009-02-16 13:20:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
 One of
the things I hammer on as a decision-making consultant is the value of
getting a variety of opinions and information .
An example Obama's seems willing to emulate.
If that's the case, where in his group of advisers are the free market
and limited government advocates?
Bill Shatzer
2009-02-16 20:53:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@juno.com
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by hal lillywhite
One of
the things I hammer on as a decision-making consultant is the value of
getting a variety of opinions and information .
An example Obama's seems willing to emulate.
If that's the case, where in his group of advisers are the free market
and limited government advocates?
They are all discredited and in disgrace and have retreated to Vermont
to attempt to resurrect the Free State Movement.

They had their chance for the better part of twenty years. They fucked
it up and there's no longer any reason to give them more opportunities
to do so.

You might as well inquire as to "where in his group of advisors are the
communists?"

Peace and justice,
dr. zachary smith
2009-02-17 02:32:56 UTC
Permalink
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure

You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.

It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.

Peace and justice,

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Post by Bill Shatzer
Peace and justice,
Justin Case
2009-02-25 00:48:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by neural highway
It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.
Hopefully, your house first.

Poetic Justice
Mike Gambit
2009-02-25 04:17:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin Case
Post by neural highway
It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.
Hopefully, your house first.
Poetic Justice
By that you mean Bill Shatzer's...those were HIS words.

hal lillywhite
2009-02-17 04:40:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by h***@juno.com
Post by Bill Shatzer
 One of
the things I hammer on as a decision-making consultant is the value of
getting a variety of opinions and information .
An example Obama's seems willing to emulate.
If that's the case, where in his group of advisers are the free market
and limited government advocates?
They are all discredited and in disgrace and have retreated to Vermont
to attempt to resurrect the Free State Movement.
Nope. The nearest attempt recently to put free market and limited
government into effect was under Reagan (and he barely made a start).
Post by Bill Shatzer
They had their chance for the better part of twenty years. They fucked
it up and there's no longer any reason to give them more opportunities
to do so.
Nope. No president during the last 20 years has pushed a free market
and limited government.
Post by Bill Shatzer
You might as well inquire as to "where in his group of advisors are the
communists?"
Fine, let him have a communist adviser if he'll also listen to someone
like Thomas Sowell.
Clave
2009-02-15 21:55:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Simon
A network of senior military officers appears to be engaged in an
effort to mobilize public opinion against Obama's decision to leave
Iraq.
CENTCOM commander Gen. David Petraeus, supported by Defense Secretary
Robert Gates, tried to convince President Barack Obama that he had to
back down from his campaign pledge to withdraw all U.S. combat troops
from Iraq within 16 months at an Oval Office meeting Jan. 21.
How terrible! Experts in the subject, people who have been there (for
more than a brief visit), people who saw what worked and what didn't,
have the temerity to give advice to a politician! Obviously that
cannot be allowed.
======================================================================

When did it become their job to set American policy?

Just askin...

Jim
neural highway
2009-02-15 23:55:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Paul Simon
A network of senior military officers appears to be engaged in an
effort to mobilize public opinion against Obama's decision to leave
Iraq.
CENTCOM commander Gen. David Petraeus, supported by Defense Secretary
Robert Gates, tried to convince President Barack Obama that he had to
back down from his campaign pledge to withdraw all U.S. combat troops
from Iraq within 16 months at an Oval Office meeting Jan. 21.
How terrible! Experts in the subject, people who have been there (for
more than a brief visit), people who saw what worked and what didn't,
have the temerity to give advice to a politician! Obviously that
cannot be allowed.
======================================================================
When did it become their job to set American policy?
'Fraid you'll be drafted?
h***@juno.com
2009-02-16 13:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clave
When did it become their job to set American policy?
Just when did giving advice and attempting to persuade become setting
policy?
Clave
2009-02-16 20:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clave
When did it become their job to set American policy?
Just when did giving advice and attempting to persuade become setting
policy?
=========================================================

Read the subject line.

Sheesh.

Jim
dr. zachary smith
2009-02-17 01:48:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@juno.com
Post by Clave
When did it become their job to set American policy?
Just when did giving advice and attempting to persuade become setting
policy?
=========================================================
Read the subject line.
Sheesh.
Jim
Evil clam fart #712,301
h***@juno.com
2009-02-17 21:01:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@juno.com
Just when did giving advice and attempting to persuade become setting
policy?
=========================================================
Read the subject line.
I did. I also read the article which does not support the subject
line (something common among some posters here). There is nothing in
the actual article to indicate that the generals are trying to
undermine the exit strategy but plenty to show that they are
expressing disagreement. If they think his policy won't be effective
they have a *duty* to tell him why they disagree.
Clave
2009-02-18 02:14:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@juno.com
Just when did giving advice and attempting to persuade become setting
policy?
=========================================================
Read the subject line.
I did. I also read the article which does not support the subject
line...
===============================================================

It certainly does.

A network of senior military officers is also reported to
be preparing to support Petraeus and Odierno by mobilizing
public opinion against Obama's decision.

Or did you just miss that part?

Jim
hal lillywhite
2009-02-18 19:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@juno.com
Just when did giving advice and attempting to persuade become setting
policy?
=========================================================
Read the subject line.
I did.  I also read the article which does not support the subject
line...
===============================================================
It certainly does.
    A network of senior military officers is also reported to
    be preparing to support Petraeus and Odierno by mobilizing
    public opinion against Obama's decision.
So they are going to use their first amendment rights to inform the
voters. Big deal. It's not like they plan to clandestinely keep the
troops against Obama's orders. The latter is what I would consider an
unacceptable undermining of his exit strategy.

Clue for you: in this country we expect public discussion of public
issues.
Bert Hyman
2009-02-18 19:53:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by hal lillywhite
So they are going to use their first amendment rights to inform the
voters. Big deal.
For active members of the military, it certainly is a big deal.
Post by hal lillywhite
Clue for you: in this country we expect public discussion of public
issues.
If these "senior military officers" want to participate, they'd best
resign real soon.
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN ***@iphouse.com
hal lillywhite
2009-02-18 23:13:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by hal lillywhite
So they are going to use their first amendment rights to inform the
voters.  Big deal.
For active members of the military, it certainly is a big deal.
Post by hal lillywhite
Clue for you: in this country we expect public discussion of public
issues.
If these "senior military officers" want to participate, they'd best
resign real soon.
Big difference between the prohibited political activities involving
elections and providing information and opinion. In fact senior
military officers regularly talk to congress etc. about their areas of
expertise. That is as it should be.
Bill Z.
2009-02-18 23:46:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by hal lillywhite
So they are going to use their first amendment rights to inform the
voters.  Big deal.
For active members of the military, it certainly is a big deal.
Post by hal lillywhite
Clue for you: in this country we expect public discussion of public
issues.
If these "senior military officers" want to participate, they'd best
resign real soon.
Big difference between the prohibited political activities involving
elections and providing information and opinion. In fact senior
military officers regularly talk to congress etc. about their areas of
expertise. That is as it should be.
According to

<http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/17/no-yes-men-obama-says/>

(written in December 2007), Obama has stated that he does not want to
be surrounded with "yes men".
dr. zachary smith
2009-02-19 03:44:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Post by hal lillywhite
Post by Bert Hyman
Post by hal lillywhite
So they are going to use their first amendment rights to inform the
voters. Big deal.
For active members of the military, it certainly is a big deal.
Post by hal lillywhite
Clue for you: in this country we expect public discussion of public
issues.
If these "senior military officers" want to participate, they'd best
resign real soon.
Big difference between the prohibited political activities involving
elections and providing information and opinion. In fact senior
military officers regularly talk to congress etc. about their areas of
expertise. That is as it should be.
According to
<http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/17/no-yes-men-obama-says/>
(written in December 2007), Obama has stated that he does not want to
be surrounded with "yes men".
Mission accomplished!
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