Discussion:
Dr. Bill and Eco-Freaks
(too old to reply)
Stan de SD
2007-02-17 20:42:24 UTC
Permalink
Dr. Bill seems to take wild swings at eco-freaks. I don't listen all that
much to know who he thinks is on the list. However, it seems like the top
EPA
Sierra Club
Bureaucrats (Whomever they might be. Any particular ones?)
GISS (Goddard Institute of Space Studies) U.S. (NASA) Center
Hadley Center (Britain)
Institute for Environmental Studies (Japan)
Does he have an Eco-Stars list?
I wonder how he feels about this list? They are all players in the global
warming game. My views, freaks and stars, are below my signature file.
Funny how you frame the issue in terms of your personal opinions of people
you disagree with, instead of dealing with facts. You're probably one of the
"community college morons" Dr. Bill is talking about... :O|
Stan de SD
2007-02-18 00:09:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
Dr. Bill seems to take wild swings at eco-freaks. I don't listen all that
much to know who he thinks is on the list. However, it seems like the top
EPA
Sierra Club
Bureaucrats (Whomever they might be. Any particular ones?)
GISS (Goddard Institute of Space Studies) U.S. (NASA) Center
Hadley Center (Britain)
Institute for Environmental Studies (Japan)
Does he have an Eco-Stars list?
I wonder how he feels about this list? They are all players in the global
warming game. My views, freaks and stars, are below my signature file.
Funny how you frame the issue in terms of your personal opinions of people
you disagree with, instead of dealing with facts. You're probably one of the
"community college morons" Dr. Bill is talking about... :O|
Ah, an ad hominem attack. How unexpected.
Not an ad-hominem atack. Merely a conjecture.
Can you express *your* opinion???
I can express facts:

(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
(2) Substantial temperature swings have been occurring for millions of
years.
(3) Most of the chicken-little GW models are just that, and don't account
for solar flares or other such cyclical activities.
(4) Kyoto accords won't solve any GW/greenhouse gas problems.
(5) Enviro-doom preachers have a long track record of being dead wrong (i.e.
"oncoming ice age" in 1970's, "Population Bomb")

Your turn.
Spartakus
2007-02-18 00:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
Perhaps not, but it is humankind's primary contribution to global
warming.
Post by Stan de SD
(2) Substantial temperature swings have been occurring for millions of
years.
Note the time span - *millions* of years. Right now, climate is
changing at a rate that has historically been catastrophic for
populations.
Post by Stan de SD
(3) Most of the chicken-little GW models are just that, and don't account
for solar flares or other such cyclical activities.
Your lack of supporting evidence is telling.
Post by Stan de SD
(4) Kyoto accords won't solve any GW/greenhouse gas problems.
I thought you just said there aren't any problems with global warming.
Post by Stan de SD
(5) Enviro-doom preachers have a long track record of being dead wrong (i.e.
"oncoming ice age" in 1970's, "Population Bomb")
Darwin and Mendel were wrong about several details of evolution and
genetic inheritance, but that didn't stop their successors from
building on their work. And now we have more extensive data.

Here's a thought experiment for you, Stan - if you or someone you love
was diagnosed with cancer, would you place your trust in the
scientific/medical consensus regarding treatment? Or would you seek
out the advice of someone who claims that homeopathy or laetrile will
cure cancer? When the chips are down, you'd follow the science,
wouldn't you?
Stan de SD
2007-02-18 01:31:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
Perhaps not, but it is humankind's primary contribution to global
warming.
Whether it's our primary contributor or not is meaningless if the relative
contribution is inconsenquential.
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(2) Substantial temperature swings have been occurring for millions of
years.
Note the time span - *millions* of years.
Try HUNDREDS of years, and the fact that there have already been 2 cyclical
warm/cool spells in the North Atlantic region (eastern US, Canada,
Greenland, Western Europe) in the last 1000 years.
Post by Spartakus
Right now, climate is
changing at a rate that has historically been catastrophic for
populations.
Really? Sources? Cites?
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(3) Most of the chicken-little GW models are just that, and don't account
for solar flares or other such cyclical activities.
Your lack of supporting evidence is telling.
YOUR lack of supporting evidence is telling - if you're the one predicting
catastrophic change, then back it up, Sparky.
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(4) Kyoto accords won't solve any GW/greenhouse gas problems.
I thought you just said there aren't any problems with global warming.
There aren't, so the Kyoto accords (which allow China and India - the
biggest populations on the planet - to continue their emissions unimpeded)
won't solve anything.
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(5) Enviro-doom preachers have a long track record of being dead wrong (i.e.
"oncoming ice age" in 1970's, "Population Bomb")
Darwin and Mendel were wrong about several details of evolution and
genetic inheritance, but that didn't stop their successors from
building on their work. And now we have more extensive data.
Tell us about the "impending ice age", idiot.
Post by Spartakus
Here's a thought experiment for you, Stan - if you or someone you love
was diagnosed with cancer, would you place your trust in the
scientific/medical consensus regarding treatment? Or would you seek
out the advice of someone who claims that homeopathy or laetrile will
cure cancer? When the chips are down, you'd follow the science,
wouldn't you?
No scientific proof that global warming is a threat...
Disgruntled Customer
2007-02-18 02:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
Whether it's our primary contributor or not is meaningless if the relative
contribution is inconsenquential.
How much carbon has reentered the biosphere in the last one hundred years? How much of that was due to non-human causes? This doesn't require complex calculations or lengthy studies to understand that humans are re-introducing volatile carbon to the biosphere in amounts that have not been seen for hundreds of millions of years. Comments about what happened over the last thousand or million years are not relevant unless you can prove the increased carbon load has no effect.

The increase of carbon gasses is a fact. Its consequence is not yet known. If you want analogues, you will have to go far beyond the little Ice Age.
Post by Stan de SD
Try HUNDREDS of years, and the fact that there have already been 2 cyclical
warm/cool spells in the North Atlantic region (eastern US, Canada,
Greenland, Western Europe) in the last 1000 years.
Differences in atmosphere's chemistry invalidate these comparison unless you can prove the chemistry has no effect.
Post by Stan de SD
YOUR lack of supporting evidence is telling - if you're the one predicting
catastrophic change, then back it up, Sparky.
You're lacking supporting evidence. You keep citing situations with a different atmosphere.
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(4) Kyoto accords won't solve any GW/greenhouse gas problems.
I thought you just said there aren't any problems with global warming.
There aren't, so the Kyoto accords (which allow China and India - the
biggest populations on the planet - to continue their emissions unimpeded)
won't solve anything.
You claim without evidence that any reduction in carbon gasses will have no effect.
Post by Stan de SD
Tell us about the "impending ice age", idiot.
The ozone layer still exists. Therefore the fluorocarbons were never a threat and we should remove all controls on their use and production.
Post by Stan de SD
No scientific proof that global warming is a threat...
We are driving the atmosphere where it has not been for about half a billion years. We don't know what will happen. You would rather risk it all for political gain than take a few measures to strength national security. You're a Republican, right?
--
Feh. Mad as heck.
John Higdon
2007-02-18 02:20:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Disgruntled Customer
We are driving the atmosphere where it has not been for about half a billion
years. We don't know what will happen. You would rather risk it all for
political gain than take a few measures to strength national security. You're
a Republican, right?
It all comes back to partisan politics, doesn't it? It's all about
right/left, Republican/Democratic, regressive/progressive, ad nauseum.

Do your part. Pull the main breaker on your home tonight. Call the
wrecking yard to pick up your car for squashing tomorrow. Stop breathing.
--
John Higdon
+1 408 266 4400
Disgruntled Customer
2007-02-18 04:05:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Higdon
It all comes back to partisan politics, doesn't it? It's all about
right/left, Republican/Democratic, regressive/progressive, ad nauseum.
Why not show it is irrelevant?
Post by John Higdon
Do your part. Pull the main breaker on your home tonight. Call the
wrecking yard to pick up your car for squashing tomorrow. Stop breathing.
Not everybody uses a gasoline car.
--
Feh. Mad as heck.
Jafo
2007-02-18 13:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by John Higdon
It all comes back to partisan politics, doesn't it? It's all about
right/left, Republican/Democratic, regressive/progressive, ad nauseum.
Why not show it is irrelevant?
Post by John Higdon
Do your part. Pull the main breaker on your home tonight. Call the
wrecking yard to pick up your car for squashing tomorrow. Stop >>breathing.
Not everybody uses a gasoline car.
What sort of fuel does your car use?

--
Jafo
n***@million
2007-02-18 02:24:10 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 02:01:00 -0000, Disgruntled Customer
Post by Stan de SD
Whether it's our primary contributor or not is meaningless if the relative
contribution is inconsenquential.
How much carbon has reentered the biosphere in the last one hundred ears?
How much of that was due to non-human causes? This doesn't require complex
calculations or lengthy studies to understand that humans are re-introducing
volatile carbon to the biosphere in amounts that have not been seen for hundreds
of millions of years. Comments about what happened over the last thousand or
million years are not relevant unless you can prove the increased carbon load has
no effect. The increase of carbon gasses is a fact. Its consequence is not yet
known. If you want analogues, you will have to go far beyond the little Ice Age.
Post by Stan de SD
Try HUNDREDS of years, and the fact that there have already been 2 cyclical
warm/cool spells in the North Atlantic region (eastern US, Canada,
Greenland, Western Europe) in the last 1000 years.
Differences in atmosphere's chemistry invalidate these comparison unless you can
prove the chemistry has no effect.
Post by Stan de SD
YOUR lack of supporting evidence is telling - if you're the one predicting
catastrophic change, then back it up, Sparky.
You're lacking supporting evidence. You keep citing situations with a different atmosphere.
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(4) Kyoto accords won't solve any GW/greenhouse gas problems.
I thought you just said there aren't any problems with global warming.
There aren't, so the Kyoto accords (which allow China and India - the
biggest populations on the planet - to continue their emissions unimpeded)
won't solve anything.
You claim without evidence that any reduction in carbon gasses will have no effect.
Post by Stan de SD
Tell us about the "impending ice age", idiot.
The ozone layer still exists. Therefore the fluorocarbons were never a threat
and we should remove all controls on their use and production.
Post by Stan de SD
No scientific proof that global warming is a threat...
We are driving the atmosphere where it has not been for about half a billion
years. We don't know what will happen. You would rather risk it all for political
gain than take a few measures to strength national security. You're a Republican, right?
Disgruntled,

Very persuasive arguments (rebuttals) and points!

The system, the ecological one in which we live, is based on the known
principles of entropy. While the system has shown that it has in past
eons been self corrective, the existence of the human element seems on
the threshold of destroying it all and much more suddenly.

DCI
John Higdon
2007-02-18 02:35:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@million
The system, the ecological one in which we live, is based on the known
principles of entropy. While the system has shown that it has in past
eons been self corrective, the existence of the human element seems on
the threshold of destroying it all and much more suddenly.
And it has all come about in just the past several years! Amazing!

(In the fifties, we were all going to be nuked and built shelters. Now,
I guess we'll all just move back into caves.)
--
John Higdon
+1 408 266 4400
Stan de SD
2007-02-19 03:54:17 UTC
Permalink
"Tilly"
Loading Image...
The War Party - Neocon Zionist Jews, Christians Behind Bush - BBC Panorama
http://video.google.com:80/videoplay?docid=6453738561338241311&hl=en-GB
All of Europe has been able to see this video.
BBC Panorama, BBC's equivalent of Sixty Minutes,
has aired this video.
Why were we kept in the dark?
Why are you such an annoying fucking spammer?
Steven
2007-02-18 03:49:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@million
On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 02:01:00 -0000, Disgruntled Customer
Post by Stan de SD
Whether it's our primary contributor or not is meaningless if the relative
contribution is inconsenquential.
How much carbon has reentered the biosphere in the last one hundred ears?
How much of that was due to non-human causes? This doesn't require complex
calculations or lengthy studies to understand that humans are re-introducing
volatile carbon to the biosphere in amounts that have not been seen for hundreds
of millions of years. Comments about what happened over the last thousand or
million years are not relevant unless you can prove the increased carbon load has
no effect. The increase of carbon gasses is a fact. Its consequence is not yet
known. If you want analogues, you will have to go far beyond the little Ice Age.
Post by Stan de SD
Try HUNDREDS of years, and the fact that there have already been 2 cyclical
warm/cool spells in the North Atlantic region (eastern US, Canada,
Greenland, Western Europe) in the last 1000 years.
Differences in atmosphere's chemistry invalidate these comparison unless you can
prove the chemistry has no effect.
Post by Stan de SD
YOUR lack of supporting evidence is telling - if you're the one predicting
catastrophic change, then back it up, Sparky.
You're lacking supporting evidence. You keep citing situations with a different
atmosphere.
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(4) Kyoto accords won't solve any GW/greenhouse gas problems.
I thought you just said there aren't any problems with global warming.
There aren't, so the Kyoto accords (which allow China and India - the
biggest populations on the planet - to continue their emissions unimpeded)
won't solve anything.
You claim without evidence that any reduction in carbon gasses will have no effect.
Post by Stan de SD
Tell us about the "impending ice age", idiot.
The ozone layer still exists. Therefore the fluorocarbons were never a threat
and we should remove all controls on their use and production.
Post by Stan de SD
No scientific proof that global warming is a threat...
We are driving the atmosphere where it has not been for about half a billion
years. We don't know what will happen. You would rather risk it all for political
gain than take a few measures to strength national security. You're a Republican, right?
Disgruntled,
Very persuasive arguments (rebuttals) and points!
He's barely got a butt to re. go pat you back elsewhere...all the 40+
must think we raised retards for kids.
Steven
2007-02-18 03:47:18 UTC
Permalink
I'd fucking like to know where all this shit you worry about is gonna
go, if you don't send it into outer space?

It's a closed system, padrino, and according to the laws of
conservation, one of them says you can't make new or destroy stuff, if
changes to a new form. Likewise, it's all somewhere...

maybe some of it is in Al Yankovic and other parts are dirt or a '68
Corvette, but y'all get this dumass idea it's DISAPPEARING in droves.

My god, if my generation made you...
Disgruntled Customer
2007-02-18 04:13:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven
I'd fucking like to know where all this shit you worry about is gonna
go, if you don't send it into outer space?
It's a closed system, padrino, and according to the laws of
conservation, one of them says you can't make new or destroy stuff, if
changes to a new form. Likewise, it's all somewhere...
The atmosphere is not a closed system: the amount of carbon in the atmosphere can change.
--
Feh. Mad as heck.
Steven
2007-02-18 04:41:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Steven
I'd fucking like to know where all this shit you worry about is gonna
go, if you don't send it into outer space?
It's a closed system, padrino, and according to the laws of
conservation, one of them says you can't make new or destroy stuff, if
changes to a new form. Likewise, it's all somewhere...
The atmosphere is not a closed system: the amount of carbon in the atmosphere can change.
--
Feh. Mad as heck.
For the last time Harvey Fierstein can change into Celine Dion, but
not one whit of matter ws lost or gained. Bury a tree and it rots,
carbon in the ground can stay or be leached be water. Your thinking is
so one-dimensional it's dangerous. All of this works with or without
us, and you place far too much importance in the existance of the
human race for the existance of this "biosphere".

The only problem is that you just told me if you buried the trees the
"carbon" was lost! What science class are you flunking currently?
Carbon is an ELEMENT. Unless you truck it to Jupiter it's gonna be
SOMEWHERE in SOMETHING.

And why should I care if something else is dominant on this planet???

End of your ego trip and end of this GAME!
s***@my-deja.com
2007-02-18 03:57:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
Perhaps not, but it is humankind's primary contribution to global
warming.
Whether it's our primary contributor or not is meaningless if the relative
contribution is inconsenquential.
I just realized that your first "fact" is a red herring. At any rate,
the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change thinks that CO2 is
signficant:

"Of the greenhouse gases, this paper focuses on CO2
because it has had, and is projected to have, the largest
effect on radiative forcing ... "

http://www.ipcc.ch/pub/IPCCTP.III(E).pdf

Btw, the IPCC is an outgrowth of the World Meteorological Organization
and the United Nations Environment Program. They publish an
assessment every 5 or 6 years, which summarizes the work of about
1,000 scientists from 100 nations whose task it is to report on the
state of climate change knowledge. These assessments are accepted as
the most authoritative, definitive summaries on the topic, and are
used by policymakers in nations all over the world. They're a damn
sight more credible than any source you have cited. Oh wait, you
haven't cited any sources.
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(2) Substantial temperature swings have been occurring for millions of
years.
Note the time span - *millions* of years.
Try HUNDREDS of years, and the fact that there have already been 2 cyclical
warm/cool spells in the North Atlantic region (eastern US, Canada,
Greenland, Western Europe) in the last 1000 years.
Post by Spartakus
Right now, climate is changing at a rate that has historically been
catastrophic for populations.
Really? Sources? Cites?
That's rich, coming from someone who has not presented *one* iota of
evidence for his position. If I compile the supporting evidence and
present it to you, will it make a difference? Or will you be like one
poster in another on-line discussion forum who said, "I have made up
my mind that global warming is bullshit regardless of what data is
presented to me"?
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(3) Most of the chicken-little GW models are just that, and don't
account for solar flares or other such cyclical activities.
Your lack of supporting evidence is telling.
YOUR lack of supporting evidence is telling - if you're the one predicting
catastrophic change, then back it up, Sparky.
What have we seen in recent years? Heat waves in Texas killing
hundreds, heat waves killing thousands in Europe, droughts in the
Midwest resulting in some of the weakest wheat harvests since the Dust
Bowl?
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(4) Kyoto accords won't solve any GW/greenhouse gas problems.
I thought you just said there aren't any problems with global warming.
There aren't, so the Kyoto accords (which allow China and India - the
biggest populations on the planet - to continue their emissions unimpeded)
won't solve anything.
They have bigger populations, but we are still the largest consumer of
fossil fuels, by far.
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(5) Enviro-doom preachers have a long track record of being dead
wrong (i.e. "oncoming ice age" in 1970's, "Population Bomb")
Darwin and Mendel were wrong about several details of evolution
and genetic inheritance, but that didn't stop their successors from
building on their work. And now we have more extensive data.
Tell us about the "impending ice age", idiot.
It's YOUR strawman - you beat it up.

Several years ago, my doctor warned me of a strong likelihood that my
high blood pressure could bring on a possibly fatal heart attack. I
responded by losing weight, exercising more and taking meds to
regulate my BP. At present, my blood tests now show the profile of
someone decades younger. Was my doctor wrong?
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Spartakus
Here's a thought experiment for you, Stan - if you or someone you love
was diagnosed with cancer, would you place your trust in the
scientific/medical consensus regarding treatment? Or would you seek
out the advice of someone who claims that homeopathy or laetrile will
cure cancer? When the chips are down, you'd follow the science,
wouldn't you?
No scientific proof that global warming is a threat...
It's a THOUGHT EXPERIMENT, jackass. Here are more web sites and pages
for you to
wave away:

http://nationalacademies.org/headlines/20070104.html

http://web.princeton.edu/sites/cics/

http://www.giss.nasa.gov/

http://www.ncar.ucar.edu/

http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/

http://www.noaa.gov/

They all have lots of *scientific* content regarding global warming.
Basically, you have the choice of doing something that would be in
your own interest (and that of your children's), or falling in line
with the oil and coal companies and letting Father Darwin sort it out.

Have an enlightening day.
Steven
2007-02-18 04:25:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
Perhaps not, but it is humankind's primary contribution to global
warming.
Whether it's our primary contributor or not is meaningless if the relative
contribution is inconsenquential.
I just realized that your first "fact" is a red herring. At any rate,
the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change thinks that CO2 is
"Of the greenhouse gases, this paper focuses on CO2
because it has had, and is projected to have, the largest
effect on radiative forcing ... "
http://www.ipcc.ch/pub/IPCCTP.III(E).pdf
Btw, the IPCC is an outgrowth of the World Meteorological Organization
and the United Nations Environment Program. They publish an
assessment every 5 or 6 years, which summarizes the work of about
1,000 scientists from 100 nations whose task it is to report on the
state of climate change knowledge. These assessments are accepted as
the most authoritative, definitive summaries on the topic, and are
used by policymakers in nations all over the world. They're a damn
sight more credible than any source you have cited. Oh wait, you
haven't cited any sources.
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(2) Substantial temperature swings have been occurring for millions of
years.
Note the time span - *millions* of years.
Try HUNDREDS of years, and the fact that there have already been 2 cyclical
warm/cool spells in the North Atlantic region (eastern US, Canada,
Greenland, Western Europe) in the last 1000 years.
Post by Spartakus
Right now, climate is changing at a rate that has historically been
catastrophic for populations.
Really? Sources? Cites?
That's rich, coming from someone who has not presented *one* iota of
evidence for his position. If I compile the supporting evidence and
present it to you, will it make a difference? Or will you be like one
poster in another on-line discussion forum who said, "I have made up
my mind that global warming is bullshit regardless of what data is
presented to me"?
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(3) Most of the chicken-little GW models are just that, and don't
account for solar flares or other such cyclical activities.
Your lack of supporting evidence is telling.
YOUR lack of supporting evidence is telling - if you're the one predicting
catastrophic change, then back it up, Sparky.
What have we seen in recent years? Heat waves in Texas killing
hundreds, heat waves killing thousands in Europe, droughts in the
Midwest resulting in some of the weakest wheat harvests since the Dust
Bowl?
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(4) Kyoto accords won't solve any GW/greenhouse gas problems.
I thought you just said there aren't any problems with global warming.
There aren't, so the Kyoto accords (which allow China and India - the
biggest populations on the planet - to continue their emissions unimpeded)
won't solve anything.
They have bigger populations, but we are still the largest consumer of
fossil fuels, by far.
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(5) Enviro-doom preachers have a long track record of being dead
wrong (i.e. "oncoming ice age" in 1970's, "Population Bomb")
Darwin and Mendel were wrong about several details of evolution
and genetic inheritance, but that didn't stop their successors from
building on their work. And now we have more extensive data.
Tell us about the "impending ice age", idiot.
It's YOUR strawman - you beat it up.
Several years ago, my doctor warned me of a strong likelihood that my
high blood pressure could bring on a possibly fatal heart attack. I
responded by losing weight, exercising more and taking meds to
regulate my BP. At present, my blood tests now show the profile of
someone decades younger. Was my doctor wrong?
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Spartakus
Here's a thought experiment for you, Stan - if you or someone you love
was diagnosed with cancer, would you place your trust in the
scientific/medical consensus regarding treatment? Or would you seek
out the advice of someone who claims that homeopathy or laetrile will
cure cancer? When the chips are down, you'd follow the science,
wouldn't you?
No scientific proof that global warming is a threat...
It's a THOUGHT EXPERIMENT, jackass. Here are more web sites and pages
for you to
I just ate and you want me to sit on the edge of my bed and get cross-
eyed and then it would be painful to straighten out the kink in my
hips.

FOAD and if you want to crosspost this garbage to a group about radio,
die twice.

If all this crap happens I hope you die first to prove it.

You kids are proof my generation should have listened about AIDS and
became monks.
Spartakus
2007-02-19 03:05:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven
I just ate and you want me to sit on the edge of my bed and get cross-
eyed and then it would be painful to straighten out the kink in my
hips.
Aw, what a crying shame! Life on Usenet got you down?
Post by Steven
FOAD and if you want to crosspost this garbage to a group about
radio, die twice.
You handle FOAD with all the dexterity of a lobotomized walrus. And
what's with the double-standard? You were all but asking Stan (the
guy who started this crossposting free-for-all) for a reach-around at
practically the same time.
Post by Steven
If all this crap happens I hope you die first to prove it.
Btw, I have come to prefer FROB. I'll leave it to you to do the
research as to what it means.
Post by Steven
You kids are proof my generation should have listened about AIDS
and became monks.
ROTFL! If jumping to conclusions was an Olympic sport, you'd be on
your way to Beijing as a pre-emptive favorite for a gold medal.
Stan de SD
2007-02-18 06:43:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
Perhaps not, but it is humankind's primary contribution to global
warming.
Whether it's our primary contributor or not is meaningless if the relative
contribution is inconsenquential.
I just realized that your first "fact" is a red herring. At any rate,
the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change thinks that CO2 is
Water vaopr is far more significant than CO2. If you believe otherwise, tell
us what wavelength of energy has the strongest reflectance of CO2, and tell
us what percentage of radiation is within that range. Compare that with the
fact that we know that water vapor (in the form of clouds) can trap radiated
heat from the earth's surface, as well as reflect heat in the visible
spectrum. If you can't to that much, you're merely another liberal idiot
repeating all the crap you heard on NPR.

(rest of moronic bullshit snipped - why should I waste my time with some
liberal idiot who can't explain the mechanism of how gases raise the
temperature on the Earth's surface?)
Mike Nelson
2007-02-18 20:54:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
Water vaopr is far more significant than CO2. If you believe otherwise, tell
us what wavelength of energy has the strongest reflectance of CO2, and tell
us what percentage of radiation is within that range. Compare that with the
fact that we know that water vapor (in the form of clouds) can trap radiated
heat from the earth's surface, as well as reflect heat in the visible
spectrum. If you can't to that much, you're merely another liberal idiot
repeating all the crap you heard on NPR.
Right as far as you go, but you don't go far enough to
demonstrate full knowledge of the system as a whole.
Our own government scientists admit there is much to
learn about the system and water vapor's role in it.

From http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/gases.html ...

"Water Vapor is the most abundant greenhouse gas in the atmosphere,
which is why it is addressed here first. However, changes in its
concentration is also considered to be a result of climate feedback
related to the warming of the atmosphere rather than a direct result
of industrialization. The feedback loop in which water is involved
is critically important to projecting future climate change, but as
yet is still fairly poorly measured and understood.

"As the temperature of the atmosphere rises, more water is evaporated
from ground storage (rivers, oceans, reservoirs, soil). Because the
air is warmer, the relative humidity can be higher (in essence, the
air is able to 'hold' more water when its warmer), leading to more
water vapor in the atmosphere. As a greenhouse gas, the higher
concentration of water vapor is then able to absorb more thermal IR
energy radiated from the Earth, thus further warming the atmosphere.
The warmer atmosphere can then hold more water vapor and so on and
so on. This is referred to as a 'positive feedback loop'. However,
huge scientific uncertainty exists in defining the extent and
importance of this feedback loop. As water vapor increases in the
atmosphere, more of it will eventually also condense into clouds,
which are more able to reflect incoming solar radiation (thus allowing
less energy to reach the Earth's surface and heat it up). The future
monitoring of atmospheric processes involving water vapor will be
critical to fully understand the feedbacks in the climate system
leading to global climate change. As yet, though the basics of the
hydrological cycle are fairly well understood, we have very little
comprehension of the complexity of the feedback loops. Also, while
we have good atmospheric measurements of other key greenhouse gases
such as carbon dioxide and methane, we have poor measurements of
global water vapor, so it is not certain by how much atmospheric
concentrations have risen in recent decades or centuries, though
satellite measurements, combined with balloon data and some in-situ
ground measurements indicate generally positive trends in global
water vapor."

The discussion goes on about other greenhouse gases.
Steven
2007-02-18 09:10:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
Water vaopr is far more significant than CO2. If you believe otherwise, tell
us what wavelength of energy has the strongest reflectance of CO2, and tell
us what percentage of radiation is within that range. Compare that with the
fact that we know that water vapor (in the form of clouds) can trap radiated
heat from the earth's surface, as well as reflect heat in the visible
spectrum. If you can't to that much, you're merely another liberal idiot
repeating all the crap you heard on NPR.
Right as far as you go, but you don't go far enough to
demonstrate full knowledge of the system as a whole.
Our own government scientists admit there is much to
learn about the system and water vapor's role in it.
Fromhttp://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/gases.html...
"Water Vapor is the most abundant greenhouse gas in the atmosphere,
which is why it is addressed here first. However, changes in its
concentration is also considered to be a result of climate feedback
related to the warming of the atmosphere rather than a direct result
of industrialization. The feedback loop in which water is involved
is critically important to projecting future climate change, but as
yet is still fairly poorly measured and understood.
"As the temperature of the atmosphere rises, more water is evaporated
from ground storage (rivers, oceans, reservoirs, soil). Because the
air is warmer, the relative humidity can be higher (in essence, the
air is able to 'hold' more water when its warmer), leading to more
water vapor in the atmosphere. As a greenhouse gas, the higher
concentration of water vapor is then able to absorb more thermal IR
energy radiated from the Earth, thus further warming the atmosphere.
The warmer atmosphere can then hold more water vapor and so on and
so on. This is referred to as a 'positive feedback loop'. However,
huge scientific uncertainty exists in defining the extent and
importance of this feedback loop. As water vapor increases in the
atmosphere, more of it will eventually also condense into clouds,
which are more able to reflect incoming solar radiation (thus allowing
less energy to reach the Earth's surface and heat it up). The future
monitoring of atmospheric processes involving water vapor will be
critical to fully understand the feedbacks in the climate system
leading to global climate change. As yet, though the basics of the
hydrological cycle are fairly well understood, we have very little
comprehension of the complexity of the feedback loops. Also, while
we have good atmospheric measurements of other key greenhouse gases
such as carbon dioxide and methane, we have poor measurements of
global water vapor, so it is not certain by how much atmospheric
concentrations have risen in recent decades or centuries, though
satellite measurements, combined with balloon data and some in-situ
ground measurements indicate generally positive trends in global
water vapor."
The discussion goes on about other greenhouse gases.
Don't fart in the greenhouse and you don't have that embarrassing
problem.

I wonder if the mastodons died because their factories made too many
SUVs and iPods.

I think the current biggest pollution problem is Britney Spears.
Jafo
2007-02-18 13:56:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven
I think the current biggest pollution problem is Britney Spears.
Actually, it's the late Anna Nicole Smith. She's getting more
airtime now than anybody, more even than the Iraq war.

--
Jafo
Steven
2007-02-18 14:47:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jafo
Post by Steven
I think the current biggest pollution problem is Britney Spears.
Actually, it's the late Anna Nicole Smith. She's getting more
airtime now than anybody, more even than the Iraq war.
--
Jafo
Britney shaved her head and they want under 4 bucks for her hair. Anna
Nicole's embalmed. She don't stink like Britney. Woman's ILL.
Steven
2007-02-18 14:50:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven
Post by Jafo
Post by Steven
I think the current biggest pollution problem is Britney Spears.
Actually, it's the late Anna Nicole Smith. She's getting more
airtime now than anybody, more even than the Iraq war.
--
Jafo
Britney shaved her head and they want under 4 bucks for her hair. Anna
Nicole's embalmed. She don't stink like Britney. Woman's ILL.
PS Wonder if the locks were Paypal only.

Don't seem to matter which end is bald, it's damned torture!
Stan de SD
2007-02-18 18:21:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
Water vaopr is far more significant than CO2. If you believe otherwise, tell
us what wavelength of energy has the strongest reflectance of CO2, and tell
us what percentage of radiation is within that range. Compare that with the
fact that we know that water vapor (in the form of clouds) can trap radiated
heat from the earth's surface, as well as reflect heat in the visible
spectrum. If you can't to that much, you're merely another liberal idiot
repeating all the crap you heard on NPR.
Right as far as you go, but you don't go far enough to
demonstrate full knowledge of the system as a whole.
I know enough to have observed that water vapor in the form of clouds not
only can block out incoming radiation from the sun (5500K) but reflect black
body radiation from Earth (~273K), retaining heat in the atmosphere. I also
know that the saturation pressure of water vapor changes with temperature,
which results in more cloud cover and blocking out more solar radiation.
Water vapor provides the type of equilibirum system that keeps or planet
habitable. If CO2 gas is truly the culprit of "global warming", then there
would have to be either (a) a particular absorption spectra that changes the
nature of the C=O bond to create some structure that has a significantly
lower transmission of radiated energy from the earth, or (b) a frequency
that corresponds with maximum reflectance (or minimum transmission).
Post by Mike Nelson
Our own government scientists admit there is much to
learn about the system and water vapor's role in it.
Which is why they shouldn't make wild extrapolations about things they don't
fully understand (except that there's lots of research money at stake...)
Post by Mike Nelson
"As the temperature of the atmosphere rises, more water is evaporated
from ground storage (rivers, oceans, reservoirs, soil). Because the
air is warmer, the relative humidity can be higher (in essence, the
air is able to 'hold' more water when its warmer), leading to more
water vapor in the atmosphere. As a greenhouse gas, the higher
concentration of water vapor is then able to absorb more thermal IR
energy radiated from the Earth, thus further warming the atmosphere.
The warmer atmosphere can then hold more water vapor and so on and
so on. This is referred to as a 'positive feedback loop'. However,
huge scientific uncertainty exists in defining the extent and
importance of this feedback loop. As water vapor increases in the
atmosphere, more of it will eventually also condense into clouds,
which are more able to reflect incoming solar radiation (thus allowing
less energy to reach the Earth's surface and heat it up).
In other words, the natural equilibrium system - totally INDEPENDENT of any
effect of CO2 concentration - that has been here for years. Where have you
been?
Post by Mike Nelson
The future
monitoring of atmospheric processes involving water vapor will be
critical to fully understand the feedbacks in the climate system
leading to global climate change. As yet, though the basics of the
hydrological cycle are fairly well understood, we have very little
comprehension of the complexity of the feedback loops. Also, while
we have good atmospheric measurements of other key greenhouse gases
such as carbon dioxide and methane, we have poor measurements of
global water vapor, so it is not certain by how much atmospheric
concentrations have risen in recent decades or centuries, though
satellite measurements, combined with balloon data and some in-situ
ground measurements indicate generally positive trends in global
water vapor."
Yawn. So what the fuck are you babbling about when you pontificate that I
don't understand, when the crap you posted here is basically what I said in
the first place. Sounds like you're the one too ignorant to have a clue...
Post by Mike Nelson
The discussion goes on about other greenhouse gases.
And you don't include it because you don't understand it, right? What a
maroon.
Disgruntled Customer
2007-02-18 09:29:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
Perhaps not, but it is humankind's primary contribution to global
warming.
Whether it's our primary contributor or not is meaningless if the
relative
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Stan de SD
contribution is inconsenquential.
I just realized that your first "fact" is a red herring. At any rate,
the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change thinks that CO2 is
Water vaopr is far more significant than CO2. If you believe otherwise, tell
How much more water is dissolved in the atmosphere than a hundred years ago? The effect of water is nearly constant for most of the earth's history.
Post by Stan de SD
us what wavelength of energy has the strongest reflectance of CO2, and tell
What does reflectance have to do with anything? It's about absorption/re-emission in infrared band preventing radiative cooling.
Post by Stan de SD
us what percentage of radiation is within that range. Compare that with the
fact that we know that water vapor (in the form of clouds) can trap radiated
Clouds are not water vapor. They are liquid or solid phase.
Post by Stan de SD
heat from the earth's surface, as well as reflect heat in the visible
spectrum. If you can't to that much, you're merely another liberal idiot
repeating all the crap you heard on NPR.
(rest of moronic bullshit snipped - why should I waste my time with some
liberal idiot who can't explain the mechanism of how gases raise the
temperature on the Earth's surface?)
SInce you're whining about 'reflectance,' you're showing your own stupidity.

If you insist, the sun's blackbody radiation is centered on yellow-green which transmits, unreflectively, through the atmosphere absorbed by the surface which then reradiates at a lower blackbody temperature peaking in infrared. This wavelength is not transparent to some gasses like carbon dioxide; they absorb the radiation and re-emit in a random direction, half of which is downward so that energy radiates more slowly from the earth than it is added to the earth. The air near the surface heats. Convection currents carry the hot gas to radiate at a high altitude which eventually stabilize incoming and outgoing energy.

The effect of water on the system is close to constant. Carbon gasses do not precipitate and carbon dioxide does not oxidize, making it possible to remain dissolved in biosphere fluids until it is altered by biological process or reacting with available ions. The amount of calcium etc available is has remained fairly constant over the earth's history. Biological processes can be roughly gauged by measuring the extent of forests. If plants were removing carbon as quickly as you fantasize then forest mass (which is roughly equivalent to forest area) would be increasing in proportion to fossil fuel extraction. Is it?

Otherwise we are adding volatile carbon to the biosphere that has been removed from it since the earliest forests, which if memory serves is about 600 million years ago. So we are returning the atmosphere to a state similar to the beginning of multicellular life. Are those conditions amicable to human civilization? This predates our phylum, so we don't have a lot of experience to judge from.
--
Feh. Mad as heck.
Alan
2007-02-18 18:21:30 UTC
Permalink
Your off-topic thread removed from ba.broadcast.
The effect of water on the system is close to constant. Carbon gasses do
not precipitate and carbon dioxide does not oxidize, making it possible to
remain dissolved in biosphere fluids until it is altered by biological
process or reacting with available ions. The amount of calcium etc available
is has remained fairly constant over the earth's history. Biological
processes can be roughly gauged by measuring the extent of forests. If
plants were removing carbon as quickly as you fantasize then forest mass
(which is roughly equivalent to forest area) would be increasing in
proportion to fossil fuel extraction. Is it?
It would only increase in area if not constrained by something else.
When people cut it down, it leaves more open space for more growth, unless
people keep it cut back, which they do.

If it could grow without limit, why didn't it in the past? Because things
like oceans and geography got in the way.

Your argument fails in one critical detail. The oceans have more plant
mass and more photosynthesis than the forests. They have capacity to
increase, as the density only needs to increase.

Alan
Spartakus
2007-02-19 02:39:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
Perhaps not, but it is humankind's primary contribution to global
warming.
Whether it's our primary contributor or not is meaningless if the
relative contribution is inconsenquential.
I just realized that your first "fact" is a red herring. At any rate,
the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change thinks that CO2 is
Water vaopr is far more significant than CO2.
You've been told repeatedly that there is a limit to how much water
vapor the atmosphere can hold, but no limit to CO2.
Post by Stan de SD
If you believe otherwise, tell us what wavelength of energy has the
strongest reflectance of CO2, and tell us what percentage of radiation
is within that range.
Another pop quiz, Doctor Science? And what is the value of your red
herring question?
Post by Stan de SD
Compare that with the fact that we know that water vapor (in the form
of clouds) can trap radiated heat from the earth's surface, as well as
reflect heat in the visible spectrum. If you can't to that much, you're
merely another liberal idiot repeating all the crap you heard on NPR.
What a maroon you are, Stan. Reflected heat is virtually
unattenuated. Radiated heat is re-radiated at a lower frequency,
usually infrared. And heat is energy. The point is, the energy is
not lost.

First Law of Conservation of Energy: Energy is neither created and
destroyed. And all that energy has to find something to do - like
melt a polar ice cap or ruin a crop or fry a bunch of Texans or whip
up an unprecedented hurricane that went Cat 5 *3 times* during its 3-
week hayride around the Pacific.
Post by Stan de SD
(rest of moronic bullshit snipped - why should I waste my time with
some liberal idiot who can't explain the mechanism of how gases
raise the temperature on the Earth's surface?)
I can't explain the mechanisms by which doctors can predict heart
attacks either, but that didn't stop me from changing my life to
improve my chances. Here's a very readable paper on global warming
that is technical enough to answer most of your questions.

http://oregonstate.edu/~muirp/globclim.htm

Btw, I don't really believe you know as much as you pretend.
Steven
2007-02-19 02:44:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Spartakus
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
Perhaps not, but it is humankind's primary contribution to global
warming.
Whether it's our primary contributor or not is meaningless if the
relative contribution is inconsenquential.
I just realized that your first "fact" is a red herring. At any rate,
the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change thinks that CO2 is
Water vaopr is far more significant than CO2.
You've been told repeatedly that there is a limit to how much water
vapor the atmosphere can hold, but no limit to CO2.
Post by Stan de SD
If you believe otherwise, tell us what wavelength of energy has the
strongest reflectance of CO2, and tell us what percentage of radiation
is within that range.
Another pop quiz, Doctor Science? And what is the value of your red
herring question?
Post by Stan de SD
Compare that with the fact that we know that water vapor (in the form
of clouds) can trap radiated heat from the earth's surface, as well as
reflect heat in the visible spectrum. If you can't to that much, you're
merely another liberal idiot repeating all the crap you heard on NPR.
What a maroon you are, Stan. Reflected heat is virtually
unattenuated. Radiated heat is re-radiated at a lower frequency,
usually infrared. And heat is energy. The point is, the energy is
not lost.
First Law of Conservation of Energy: Energy is neither created and
destroyed. And all that energy has to find something to do - like
melt a polar ice cap or ruin a crop or fry a bunch of Texans or whip
up an unprecedented hurricane that went Cat 5 *3 times* during its 3-
week hayride around the Pacific.
Post by Stan de SD
(rest of moronic bullshit snipped - why should I waste my time with
some liberal idiot who can't explain the mechanism of how gases
raise the temperature on the Earth's surface?)
I can't explain the mechanisms by which doctors can predict heart
attacks either, but that didn't stop me from changing my life to
improve my chances. Here's a very readable paper on global warming
that is technical enough to answer most of your questions.
http://oregonstate.edu/~muirp/globclim.htm
Btw, I don't really believe you know as much as you pretend.
I KNOW I DON'T...

I rely on my sense of smell.
Jafo
2007-02-18 13:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@my-deja.com
so the Kyoto accords (which allow China and India - the biggest >>populations on the planet - to continue their emissions unimpeded)
won't solve anything.
They have bigger populations, but we are still the largest consumer
of fossil fuels, by far.
But for how long? India and China have growing populations and their
expanding heavy technologies are at a less sophisticated level of
technology, which means their pollution outputs are rising. It makes
no sense to throttle other countries while allowing two of the largest
to pollute as much as they need to in order to grow.

--
Jafo
Stan de SD
2007-02-18 18:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jafo
Post by Stan de SD
so the Kyoto accords (which allow China and India - the biggest
populations on the planet - to continue their emissions unimpeded)
won't solve anything.
They have bigger populations, but we are still the largest consumer
of fossil fuels, by far.
But for how long? India and China have growing populations and their
expanding heavy technologies are at a less sophisticated level of
technology, which means their pollution outputs are rising. It makes
no sense to throttle other countries while allowing two of the largest
to pollute as much as they need to in order to grow.
That's one reason to suspect that the whole "global warming" crowd doesn't
even take their own doom-and-gloom propaganda seriously. The other one is
the eco-freaks refusal to embrace nuclear power as an option to burning coal
(or oil) in stationary power plants. The sanctimonious Lefty Liberal idiots
are hysterical about CO2 emissions from automobiles driven by Americans
destroying the atmosphere - but they don't seem concerned about CO2 from
coal-burning power plants, or CO2 from China or India. Not that your typical
liberal has enough brain power to see the inconsistency here...
Dave Barnett
2007-02-19 01:01:30 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 10:27:17 -0800, "Stan de SD"
Post by Stan de SD
That's one reason to suspect that the whole "global warming" crowd doesn't
even take their own doom-and-gloom propaganda seriously. The other one is
the eco-freaks refusal to embrace nuclear power as an option to burning coal
(or oil) in stationary power plants. The sanctimonious Lefty Liberal idiots
are hysterical about CO2 emissions from automobiles driven by Americans
destroying the atmosphere - but they don't seem concerned about CO2 from
coal-burning power plants, or CO2 from China or India. Not that your typical
liberal has enough brain power to see the inconsistency here...
Nuclear power only works for a percentage of the total power grid. A
nuclear generator runs full power 100% of the time. Power consumption
varies drastically depending on the time of day and the weather. Since
there's no such thing as an AC battery, all power must be generated in
real time. As such, it isn't feasible to generate more than about 10
to 15% of the total power consumed with nuclear generation.

I don't consider myself a liberal, but I have to wonder what's really
so wrong about conserving energy and backing off on our use of fossil
fuels? Especially when it comes to driving wasteful vehicles at high
speeds? Some well-placed tax breaks for companies that support
telecommuting along with some better traffic enforcement would do
wonders for our consumption. When was the last time you smiled and
said "that's nice" when the customized Tahoe weaved in and out of
traffic and passed you at 95 MPH?

Of course, the driver of that Tahoe is paying the salary of Rex
Tillerson and all of the other people who are buying our politicians,
and it's hard for anyone to get elected without their support.

It's likely that mother nature will run its course, and the result
will be that a large percentage of Earth's human population will be
wiped out by one thing or another - maybe global warming, maybe
starvation, maybe something else. Whether we will see it in our
lifetime is anyone's guess. But would it be such a big deal to work
towards counteracting some things that we know are bad?

Dave B.
Stan de SD
2007-02-19 07:11:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Barnett
On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 10:27:17 -0800, "Stan de SD"
Post by Stan de SD
That's one reason to suspect that the whole "global warming" crowd doesn't
even take their own doom-and-gloom propaganda seriously. The other one is
the eco-freaks refusal to embrace nuclear power as an option to burning coal
(or oil) in stationary power plants. The sanctimonious Lefty Liberal idiots
are hysterical about CO2 emissions from automobiles driven by Americans
destroying the atmosphere - but they don't seem concerned about CO2 from
coal-burning power plants, or CO2 from China or India. Not that your typical
liberal has enough brain power to see the inconsistency here...
Nuclear power only works for a percentage of the total power grid. A
nuclear generator runs full power 100% of the time. Power consumption
varies drastically depending on the time of day and the weather. Since
there's no such thing as an AC battery, all power must be generated in
real time. As such, it isn't feasible to generate more than about 10
to 15% of the total power consumed with nuclear generation.
40-50% of all stationary power in the US is produced by burning coal. A
considerable chunk of that is base load, of which nuclear power is perfectly
suited for. Given that nuke plants currently produce 13% of the baseload
already, we can go to 35-40% total capacity with no problem. As far as
off-peak generation, there are plenty of options. The French (in one of the
few things I agree with) are planning on using off-peak generation
capability for generating hydrogen for fuel cells (the ONLY feasible way to
power hydrogen vehicles). In addition, what's wrong with transmitting (and
selling) off-peak power to Canada or Mexico so they can shut down their
plants off-peak. Mexico uses gas and oil for power generation, which not
only generates CO2 emissions, and lacks capacity for significant growth. I
have no problem selling off-peak power to Mexico: make some money, provide
them with cheap energy to build their economy and employ their own citizens
instead of exporting illegals here...
Dave Barnett
2007-02-19 08:01:40 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 23:11:55 -0800, "Stan de SD"
Post by Stan de SD
40-50% of all stationary power in the US is produced by burning coal. A
considerable chunk of that is base load, of which nuclear power is perfectly
suited for. Given that nuke plants currently produce 13% of the baseload
already, we can go to 35-40% total capacity with no problem. As far as
off-peak generation, there are plenty of options.
If you time it right, ramping up the generators and producing the
right amount of power at the right time that might be possible, but I
still think 35-40% would be iffy. In the winter that's probably
possible, given the use of electric heaters at night. A quick look
shows our consumption seems to be between 20,000 and 30,000 megawatts:

http://www.caiso.com/outlook/outlook.html

But I've seen loads as low as 12,000 megawatts and as high as 50,000.
You also have the problem of fuel disposal and the high costs of
building the plants. With all of the other alternatives necessary, I
have to ask "why"?
Post by Stan de SD
The French (in one of the
few things I agree with) are planning on using off-peak generation
capability for generating hydrogen for fuel cells (the ONLY feasible way to
power hydrogen vehicles). In addition, what's wrong with transmitting (and
selling) off-peak power to Canada or Mexico so they can shut down their
plants off-peak. Mexico uses gas and oil for power generation, which not
only generates CO2 emissions, and lacks capacity for significant growth. I
have no problem selling off-peak power to Mexico: make some money, provide
them with cheap energy to build their economy and employ their own citizens
instead of exporting illegals here...
Good concepts, but it seems like it would be easier to build vehicles
that were more efficient and implement some conservation methods.
Also, in order to sell that power you have to have the transmission
facilities to carry it. I don't know the total costs involved but I
do know that it took several years to upgrade the infamous "path 15"
(the transmission line between Northern and Southern California) that
was responsible for some of our power problems. If the effort was
minimal you'd think it would have been done faster.

No, I'm afraid that as long as there are people who make money from
the status quo (our use of energy), and those people continue to make
campaign contributions, we won't see any real change. I remember the
1st time I became skeptical about G.W. Bush (before 9/11) when he
responded to a question about California's energy crisis. He said
"California got themselves into it, they can get themselves out of
it". Meanwhile, his friend Ken Lay and other similar companies were
part of a scheme that milked us for billions. It's those same
companies - some of them highly leveraged - that would build these new
nuke plants.

Sorry - I can't agree with the concept of expanding nuclear generation
when there are so many other practical alternatives in existence or on
the horizon. I'm an old fart by most standards, but I'm willing to
enter the 21st century. Unfortunately there are many people who are
just unwilling to accept that the future is now, and a good deal of
them make our laws.

Dave B.
Rudy Canoza
2007-02-19 18:34:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Barnett
On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 23:11:55 -0800, "Stan de SD"
Post by Stan de SD
40-50% of all stationary power in the US is produced by burning coal. A
considerable chunk of that is base load, of which nuclear power is perfectly
suited for. Given that nuke plants currently produce 13% of the baseload
already, we can go to 35-40% total capacity with no problem. As far as
off-peak generation, there are plenty of options.
If you time it right, ramping up the generators and producing the
right amount of power at the right time that might be possible, but I
still think 35-40% would be iffy.
France obtains 75-80% of its electricity from nuclear
power.
Post by Dave Barnett
In the winter that's probably possible,
France obtains 75-80% of its electricity from nuclear
power *year round*.
Post by Dave Barnett
given the use of electric heaters at night. A quick look
http://www.caiso.com/outlook/outlook.html
But I've seen loads as low as 12,000 megawatts and as high as 50,000.
You also have the problem of fuel disposal and the high costs of
building the plants. With all of the other alternatives necessary, I
have to ask "why"?
All *what* alternatives?

As for the high cost of construction and waste
disposal...getting rid of greenhouse gas emissions is
going to be expensive, without doubt. This is one
illustration of how and why it's going to be expensive.
Post by Dave Barnett
Post by Stan de SD
The French (in one of the
few things I agree with) are planning on using off-peak generation
capability for generating hydrogen for fuel cells (the ONLY feasible way to
power hydrogen vehicles). In addition, what's wrong with transmitting (and
selling) off-peak power to Canada or Mexico so they can shut down their
plants off-peak. Mexico uses gas and oil for power generation, which not
only generates CO2 emissions, and lacks capacity for significant growth. I
have no problem selling off-peak power to Mexico: make some money, provide
them with cheap energy to build their economy and employ their own citizens
instead of exporting illegals here...
Good concepts, but it seems like it would be easier to build vehicles
that were more efficient and implement some conservation methods.
Vehicles are not the issue. Transportation is the
biggest single use source of carbon emissions,
according to the way the Department of Energy breaks it
down, but electricity production and consumption in
industrial, residential and commercial use easily add
up to more carbon emission than does transportation.
Post by Dave Barnett
Also, in order to sell that power you have to have the transmission
facilities to carry it. I don't know the total costs involved but I
do know that it took several years to upgrade the infamous "path 15"
(the transmission line between Northern and Southern California) that
was responsible for some of our power problems. If the effort was
minimal you'd think it would have been done faster.
No, I'm afraid that as long as there are people who make money from
the status quo (our use of energy), and those people continue to make
campaign contributions, we won't see any real change. I remember the
1st time I became skeptical about G.W. Bush (before 9/11) when he
responded to a question about California's energy crisis. He said
"California got themselves into it, they can get themselves out of
it". Meanwhile, his friend Ken Lay and other similar companies were
part of a scheme that milked us for billions. It's those same
companies - some of them highly leveraged - that would build these new
nuke plants.
Sorry - I can't agree with the concept of expanding nuclear generation
when there are so many other practical alternatives in existence or on
the horizon.
List them. I don't see *any* alternatives that could
come close to supplying the electricity output that
nuclear power easily can do.
Post by Dave Barnett
I'm an old fart by most standards, but I'm willing to
enter the 21st century. Unfortunately there are many people who are
just unwilling to accept that the future is now, and a good deal of
them make our laws.
Dave B.
Rudy Canoza
2007-02-19 18:35:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Barnett
On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 23:11:55 -0800, "Stan de SD"
Post by Stan de SD
40-50% of all stationary power in the US is produced by burning coal. A
considerable chunk of that is base load, of which nuclear power is perfectly
suited for. Given that nuke plants currently produce 13% of the baseload
already, we can go to 35-40% total capacity with no problem. As far as
off-peak generation, there are plenty of options.
If you time it right, ramping up the generators and producing the
right amount of power at the right time that might be possible, but I
still think 35-40% would be iffy.
France obtains 75-80% of its electricity from nuclear power.
Post by Dave Barnett
In the winter that's probably possible,
France obtains 75-80% of its electricity from nuclear power *year round*.
Post by Dave Barnett
given the use of electric heaters at night. A quick look
http://www.caiso.com/outlook/outlook.html
But I've seen loads as low as 12,000 megawatts and as high as 50,000.
You also have the problem of fuel disposal and the high costs of
building the plants. With all of the other alternatives necessary, I
have to ask "why"?
All *what* alternatives?
As for the high cost of construction and waste disposal...getting rid of
greenhouse gas emissions is going to be expensive, without doubt. This
is one illustration of how and why it's going to be expensive.
Post by Dave Barnett
Post by Stan de SD
The French (in one of the
few things I agree with) are planning on using off-peak generation
capability for generating hydrogen for fuel cells (the ONLY feasible way to
power hydrogen vehicles). In addition, what's wrong with
transmitting (and
selling) off-peak power to Canada or Mexico so they can shut down their
plants off-peak. Mexico uses gas and oil for power generation, which not
only generates CO2 emissions, and lacks capacity for significant growth. I
have no problem selling off-peak power to Mexico: make some money, provide
them with cheap energy to build their economy and employ their own citizens
instead of exporting illegals here...
Good concepts, but it seems like it would be easier to build vehicles
that were more efficient and implement some conservation methods.
Vehicles are not the issue. Transportation is the biggest single use
source of carbon emissions, according to the way the Department of
Energy breaks it down, but electricity production and consumption in
industrial, residential and commercial use easily add up to more carbon
emission than does transportation.
Sorry; forgot to give the source for this first time
around:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/1605/ggccebro/chapter1.html
Post by Dave Barnett
Also, in order to sell that power you have to have the transmission
facilities to carry it. I don't know the total costs involved but I
do know that it took several years to upgrade the infamous "path 15"
(the transmission line between Northern and Southern California) that
was responsible for some of our power problems. If the effort was
minimal you'd think it would have been done faster.
No, I'm afraid that as long as there are people who make money from
the status quo (our use of energy), and those people continue to make
campaign contributions, we won't see any real change. I remember the
1st time I became skeptical about G.W. Bush (before 9/11) when he
responded to a question about California's energy crisis. He said
"California got themselves into it, they can get themselves out of
it". Meanwhile, his friend Ken Lay and other similar companies were
part of a scheme that milked us for billions. It's those same
companies - some of them highly leveraged - that would build these new
nuke plants.
Sorry - I can't agree with the concept of expanding nuclear generation
when there are so many other practical alternatives in existence or on
the horizon.
List them. I don't see *any* alternatives that could come close to
supplying the electricity output that nuclear power easily can do.
Post by Dave Barnett
I'm an old fart by most standards, but I'm willing to
enter the 21st century. Unfortunately there are many people who are
just unwilling to accept that the future is now, and a good deal of
them make our laws.
Dave B.
Dave Barnett
2007-02-20 03:14:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rudy Canoza
France obtains 75-80% of its electricity from nuclear
power *year round*.
I actually heard this earlier and was quite surprised. If you dig a
little deeper tho, you'll find that they sell the excess generation to
other countries. For obvious geographic reasons, the Europeans have a
much better international power distribution infrastructure. Another
poster here enlightened me on the operation of PWR's to allow for
varying loads, so this might not be that big of a factor. Still, I
know from practical experience that the power level cannot be varied
as easily as other types of generators.
Post by Rudy Canoza
List them. I don't see *any* alternatives that could
come close to supplying the electricity output that
nuclear power easily can do.
Supplying electricity output is one thing. Reducing electricity (and
fossil fuel) consumption is another. Here are some of the
alternatives I can think of off the top of my head:

1. Take the corporate tax benefits currently allocated to oil
companies for "exploration" and give them to individuals who install
their own pollution-free cogeneration systems.

2. Install DC power systems and efficient lighting in new construction

3. Design computer and network equipment to operate at high ambient
temperatures (running on DC) so that the server used to store this
Usenet post will not require as much electricity. Computer rooms and
colocation sites are huge users of power.

4. Implement the mileage regulations that Detroit complained so
heavily about in the '90s. (yes, I know you said electricity - but
automobiles still make up a significant portion of our emissions).

5. Redesign anything that contains an electric heater. In virtually
every case this can be done more efficiently through some other means.
There should also be an economic incentive associated with this.

6. Offer tax incentives for companies that embrace telecommuting.
(another transportation solution, I know. Those are definitely
easier)

7. Instead of spending money on nuclear generation, spend it to build
new technology generation facilities, thus providing revenue to people
who dare to provide the future. The latest big advance I can locate
with respect to nuclear power is a press release on a plant control
system from GE to retrofit existing plants. We need to step into the
21st century.

That's just what I came up with in a few minutes' thought. Anyone
else have any other ideas?

We agree on one thing. To reduce greenhouse gas emissions will be
expensive. It's up to our leaders to take these bold steps, but we
live in a nation where nobody will make any hard decisions for fear of
not getting re-elected. Compare our reaction to September 11th vs.
the reaction to Pearl Harbor and tell me otherwise. BTW - we WON that
war.

Dave B.
Stan de SD
2007-02-19 20:58:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Barnett
On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 23:11:55 -0800, "Stan de SD"
Post by Stan de SD
40-50% of all stationary power in the US is produced by burning coal. A
considerable chunk of that is base load, of which nuclear power is perfectly
suited for. Given that nuke plants currently produce 13% of the baseload
already, we can go to 35-40% total capacity with no problem. As far as
off-peak generation, there are plenty of options.
If you time it right, ramping up the generators and producing the
right amount of power at the right time that might be possible, but I
still think 35-40% would be iffy. In the winter that's probably
possible, given the use of electric heaters at night. A quick look
http://www.caiso.com/outlook/outlook.html
But I've seen loads as low as 12,000 megawatts and as high as 50,000.
You also have the problem of fuel disposal
Fuel disposal is a minimal problem from a technological perspective - it's
more of a "political" problem thanks to hysterical ignorant anti-nuke kooks
who cook up laughable scenarious of doom.
Post by Dave Barnett
and the high costs of
building the plants. With all of the other alternatives necessary, I
have to ask "why"?
Name a single other "alternative" that can provide anywhere near the
fraction of our energy needs that nuks can provide.
Post by Dave Barnett
Post by Stan de SD
The French (in one of the
few things I agree with) are planning on using off-peak generation
capability for generating hydrogen for fuel cells (the ONLY feasible way to
power hydrogen vehicles). In addition, what's wrong with transmitting (and
selling) off-peak power to Canada or Mexico so they can shut down their
plants off-peak. Mexico uses gas and oil for power generation, which not
only generates CO2 emissions, and lacks capacity for significant growth. I
have no problem selling off-peak power to Mexico: make some money, provide
them with cheap energy to build their economy and employ their own citizens
instead of exporting illegals here...
Good concepts, but it seems like it would be easier to build vehicles
that were more efficient and implement some conservation methods.
Which we are doing already...
Post by Dave Barnett
Also, in order to sell that power you have to have the transmission
facilities to carry it. I don't know the total costs involved but I
do know that it took several years to upgrade the infamous "path 15"
(the transmission line between Northern and Southern California) that
was responsible for some of our power problems. If the effort was
minimal you'd think it would have been done faster.
Most likely dealing with the state bureaucracy...
Post by Dave Barnett
No, I'm afraid that as long as there are people who make money from
the status quo (our use of energy), and those people continue to make
campaign contributions, we won't see any real change. I remember the
1st time I became skeptical about G.W. Bush (before 9/11) when he
responded to a question about California's energy crisis. He said
"California got themselves into it, they can get themselves out of
it".
That part I actually agree with - we got ourselves in our own mess.
Post by Dave Barnett
Meanwhile, his friend Ken Lay
Friend? Sources? Cites?
Post by Dave Barnett
and other similar companies were
part of a scheme that milked us for billions.
Our power crisis isn't the fault of Bush or Ken Lay. It's the fault of the
eco-chicken-littles who shut down nukes, and have pussywhipped all of our
recent governors (Ahhh-nald, Gray-Out, and Petey Wilson) into not dealing
with our own energy generation shortfall.
Post by Dave Barnett
Sorry - I can't agree with the concept of expanding nuclear generation
when there are so many other practical alternatives in existence or on
the horizon.
Again, WHAT practical alternatives?
Dave Barnett
2007-02-20 03:45:18 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:58:07 -0800, "Stan de SD"
Post by Stan de SD
Fuel disposal is a minimal problem from a technological perspective - it's
more of a "political" problem thanks to hysterical ignorant anti-nuke kooks
who cook up laughable scenarious of doom.
Whacky scenarios aside, it's still a large glob of material that you
have to store and protect for a long period of time.
Post by Stan de SD
Name a single other "alternative" that can provide anywhere near the
fraction of our energy needs that nuks can provide.
The best alternatives are to reduce consumption, not increase
generation.
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Dave Barnett
Meanwhile, his friend Ken Lay
Friend? Sources? Cites?
This was well documented during the Enron trial. A quick Google
search turns up this:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0708042lay1.html
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Dave Barnett
and other similar companies were
part of a scheme that milked us for billions.
Our power crisis isn't the fault of Bush or Ken Lay. It's the fault of the
eco-chicken-littles who shut down nukes, and have pussywhipped all of our
recent governors (Ahhh-nald, Gray-Out, and Petey Wilson) into not dealing
with our own energy generation shortfall.
Nothing has changed significantly since 2000/2001 except that the
loopholes in the energy market were closed. Several companies besides
Enron were most likely involved in gaming schemes. It's just that
Enron had other problems. You remember all of this stuff, right?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/08/eveningnews/main621856.shtml
A quick Google search for "criminal trial energy crisis" turns up an
interesting article that pretty much covers it all:
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/20/2005/1601

I'll agree with you that our guv-nors didn't do much. But I'm not
sure I agree with you regarding what they should have done.
Deregulation of a real-time market was a mistake, IMHO.
Post by Stan de SD
Again, WHAT practical alternatives?
I put them in an earlier post, but we should embrace 21st century
technology. Nuclear power has been around longer than the 8-track.

Dave B.
Mike Nelson
2007-02-19 20:08:58 UTC
Permalink
A nuclear generator runs full power 100% of the time.
Not true. Pressurized water reactors (PWRs), which are
the predominant design used in the United States, are
controlled by the temperature of the water in the primary
coolant loop. (More about this follows, but you can skip
to the last two paragraphs to get to the real problems
with using nuclear power to reduce carbon emissions.)

PWRs are used in the US commercial power industry because
they are a spin-off of the US Navy's nuclear power program.
On Navy ships PWRs are used to make steam to turn turbines,
which generate electrical power, drive propeller shafts,
and supply steam for aircraft catapults. The load varies
widely and the N-plants work just fine at all power levels
within their rated capacity.

Once the reactor has been started up by pulling the
control rods to add reactivity to the core, and the
reactor starts to heat the water in the main coolant
loop (between 100 watts and 1000 watts), the control
rods are no longer used to control the power level in
the reactor (except to shut it down). After that, the
reactivity in the core is controlled by the density of
the primary coolant. Reactivity is related to how many
neutrons stay in the core long enough to bump into water
molecules enough times to slow them to just the right
energy level to cause a fuel atom to fission. Denser
water increases the probability of neutrons slowing
down before they leave the core. Less dense water allows
more of them to escape the core before slowing down and
causing fission.

Heat is removed from the primary coolant by the secondary
loop where the steam is made for the turbines which turn
the generators. When more heat is removed from the
primary coolant loop than is added by the reactor, the
water cools and becomes more dense which adds reactivity
to the core, which adds more heat to the water. When less
heat is removed from the primary coolant loop than is added
by the reactor, the water becomes less dense and reactivity
goes down in the core, which adds less heat to the water.
In each of these conditions a new equilibrium is quickly
established in the core at a new power level, where the
same amount of heat is added by the core than is taken out
of the coolant.

Therefore, once the reactor is in the "power range", the
amount of power made in the core is controlled by the
amount of steam made in the secondary loop. In a
commercial electrical power plant, the steam throttle
setting in the secondary loop is controlled by the
electrical load.

The real problem with using nuclear power to reduce carbon
emissions is the amount of carbon emissions it takes to
mine the fuel ore, refine the fuel, and enrich (separate
and concentrate) the fissionable isotope. In the early
days of the US military nuclear programs (for making bombs
and fueling submarines and surface ships) the energy used
didn't matter, because their was no alternative. In fact,
huge hydroelectric projects like the TVA and the Columbia
River were used to power the centrifuge cascades for fuel
enrichment, as there wasn't enough electrical power from
other sources.

It would be more efficient to use the hydroelectric power
directly to reduce carbon emissions, than it would be to
ramp up nuclear fuel production. Arguably, it would be
better for the environment not to mine uranium and just
burn the oil that would be used in the mining process.
Finally, there's the waste disposal and fuel recycling
problems that are yet to be solved.
Dave Barnett
2007-02-20 02:07:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Nelson
A nuclear generator runs full power 100% of the time.
Not true. Pressurized water reactors (PWRs), which are
the predominant design used in the United States, are
controlled by the temperature of the water in the primary
coolant loop. (More about this follows, but you can skip
to the last two paragraphs to get to the real problems
with using nuclear power to reduce carbon emissions.)
PWRs are used in the US commercial power industry because
they are a spin-off of the US Navy's nuclear power program.
On Navy ships PWRs are used to make steam to turn turbines,
which generate electrical power, drive propeller shafts,
and supply steam for aircraft catapults. The load varies
widely and the N-plants work just fine at all power levels
within their rated capacity.
Once the reactor has been started up by pulling the
control rods to add reactivity to the core, and the
reactor starts to heat the water in the main coolant
loop (between 100 watts and 1000 watts), the control
rods are no longer used to control the power level in
the reactor (except to shut it down). After that, the
reactivity in the core is controlled by the density of
the primary coolant. Reactivity is related to how many
neutrons stay in the core long enough to bump into water
molecules enough times to slow them to just the right
energy level to cause a fuel atom to fission. Denser
water increases the probability of neutrons slowing
down before they leave the core. Less dense water allows
more of them to escape the core before slowing down and
causing fission.
Heat is removed from the primary coolant by the secondary
loop where the steam is made for the turbines which turn
the generators. When more heat is removed from the
primary coolant loop than is added by the reactor, the
water cools and becomes more dense which adds reactivity
to the core, which adds more heat to the water. When less
heat is removed from the primary coolant loop than is added
by the reactor, the water becomes less dense and reactivity
goes down in the core, which adds less heat to the water.
In each of these conditions a new equilibrium is quickly
established in the core at a new power level, where the
same amount of heat is added by the core than is taken out
of the coolant.
Therefore, once the reactor is in the "power range", the
amount of power made in the core is controlled by the
amount of steam made in the secondary loop. In a
commercial electrical power plant, the steam throttle
setting in the secondary loop is controlled by the
electrical load.
This makes perfect sense. I often questioned exactly how a nuclear
reactor could be controlled so tightly as to get just the right amount
of reactivity (I.E. - heat) to maintain optimum generation. Now I
know. I based my information on the engineers I used to work with at
a former job. Even though I worked in networking I had close contact
with the power engineers. They would often complain about the fact
that they could not control the output of the nuclear generators and
had to make allowances for them elsewhere. Your post spurred some
research on my part, but nowhere can I find info on the time constants
involved or the actual range of available power variation. Do you
know where I can find any references?
Post by Mike Nelson
The real problem with using nuclear power to reduce carbon
emissions is the amount of carbon emissions it takes to
mine the fuel ore, refine the fuel, and enrich (separate
and concentrate) the fissionable isotope. In the early
days of the US military nuclear programs (for making bombs
and fueling submarines and surface ships) the energy used
didn't matter, because their was no alternative. In fact,
huge hydroelectric projects like the TVA and the Columbia
River were used to power the centrifuge cascades for fuel
enrichment, as there wasn't enough electrical power from
other sources.
It would be more efficient to use the hydroelectric power
directly to reduce carbon emissions, than it would be to
ramp up nuclear fuel production. Arguably, it would be
better for the environment not to mine uranium and just
burn the oil that would be used in the mining process.
Finally, there's the waste disposal and fuel recycling
problems that are yet to be solved.
That was the other thing that amazed me in this recent research. 80
to 100 tons of refined uranium in one 1200 Mw reactor. I didn't
realize there was such a large requirement.

Dave B.
Mike Nelson
2007-02-21 07:49:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Barnett
A nuclear generator runs full power 100% of the time.
Power plant operators want to run that way for maximum
efficiency and profit, but it isn't inherent in most
power plant technologies that they _must_ run that way.
Post by Dave Barnett
This makes perfect sense. I often questioned exactly how a nuclear
reactor could be controlled so tightly as to get just the right amount
of reactivity (I.E. - heat) to maintain optimum generation. Now I
know. I based my information on the engineers I used to work with at
a former job. Even though I worked in networking I had close contact
with the power engineers. They would often complain about the fact
that they could not control the output of the nuclear generators and
had to make allowances for them elsewhere. Your post spurred some
research on my part, but nowhere can I find info on the time constants
involved or the actual range of available power variation. Do you
know where I can find any references?
It's complicated as you may expect. There are references
to a number of research papers about core simulation computer
models, but as far as I know, the models are not published as
digestible sets of equations.

Reactivity in the core varies as the fuel "burns". The amount
of fissionable fuel itself decreases, and the amount of fission
products that are neutron absorbers are produced and depleted at
various rates, depending on fission rates and neutron flux. The
control rods (neutron absorbers) are used to compensate for these
changes at start-up to set the baseline for reactivity in the
power range.

The heat transfer and fluid flow parameters of the plant can also
be modified during operation by various factors. Neutron absorbers
(typically boron) can be added to the coolant, as well.

Here is a simulator that is commercially available. Check out the
screen shots at the bottom of the page. It looks like fun, eh?

http://www.cti-simulation.com/ctisimulation/PWR.htm
Post by Dave Barnett
That was the other thing that amazed me in this recent research. 80
to 100 tons of refined uranium in one 1200 Mw reactor. I didn't
realize there was such a large requirement.
Not only is there the spent fuel to reprocess, there is all the
other material that is activated by irradiation in the core and
within the shielded containment. This includes the fuel cladding,
reactor vessel, plumbing and pumps for the main coolant loop,
auxiliary equipment, and the massive shielding.

Perhaps worse than the radioactivity is the chemical toxicity of
uranium, plutonium, and many of the fission products.
Radioactivity will decrease over time, but chemical toxicity
remains. They don't call it "Poison Power" for nothing.
Disgruntled Customer
2007-02-18 01:40:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
How do you pump more than 100% humidity into the air? Water vapor is a limited component of the atmosphere. Carbon gasses are unlimited; they do not precipitate out.
Post by Stan de SD
(2) Substantial temperature swings have been occurring for millions of
years.
The coal and petroleum has been out of the atmosphere for hundreds of millions of years. More volatile carbon is being added to the ecosystem than since the beginning of multicellular life.
Post by Stan de SD
(3) Most of the chicken-little GW models are just that, and don't account
for solar flares or other such cyclical activities.
This cycle has not occurred since the carbon was buried hundreds of millions of years ago.
Post by Stan de SD
(4) Kyoto accords won't solve any GW/greenhouse gas problems.
Not doing anything won't solve anything faster. If you cannot solve a problem completely, which is better: solve it as best you can at the time leaving the final solution until later, or refuse to do anything at all and let the problem become worse instead of at least stablizing it?

Your bullshit is usually stated that taking a ton of carbon out of the air in Los Angeles will not take a ton out of the air in Beijing. True. But it will still be one less ton in the atmosphere of the world. It will also give America the moral high ground to put pressure on China, eventually removing two tons from the air of Beijing.
Post by Stan de SD
(5) Enviro-doom preachers have a long track record of being dead wrong (i.e.
"oncoming ice age" in 1970's, "Population Bomb")
They were based on extrapolations of trends of those times. Those predictions in some cases trigged actions that invalidated their extrapolations. Your doctor will warn you a high sodium diet will kill you. Either you reduce sodium and survive, invalidating the doctor's prediction, or you consume 10000 mgs sodium a day until the arteries in your brain explode.
--
Feh. Mad as heck.
Alan
2007-02-18 03:16:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
How do you pump more than 100% humidity into the air? Water vapor is
a limited component of the atmosphere. Carbon gasses are unlimited;
they do not precipitate out.
However, they do increase plant growth and photosynthesis, removing
more CO2 as a response.
Post by Stan de SD
(2) Substantial temperature swings have been occurring for millions of
years.
The coal and petroleum has been out of the atmosphere for hundreds of
millions of years. More volatile carbon is being added to the
ecosystem than since the beginning of multicellular life.
Yet, even with this carbon out of the atmosphere, temperature swings
have been occuring. So, perhaps they occur for other causes than the
CO2 in the atmosphere.
Post by Stan de SD
(3) Most of the chicken-little GW models are just that, and don't account
for solar flares or other such cyclical activities.
This cycle has not occurred since the carbon was buried hundreds of millions of years ago.
However, the Medieval Warm Period followed by the Little Ice Age, followed
by the current warming (beginning in the 19th century), clearly all occured
far more recently than millions of years ago.
Post by Stan de SD
(5) Enviro-doom preachers have a long track record of being dead wrong (i.e.
"oncoming ice age" in 1970's, "Population Bomb")
They were based on extrapolations of trends of those times. Those
predictions in some cases trigged actions that invalidated their
extrapolations.
Nobody that I know of did anything about the "oncoming ice age", but it
didn't happen.

As for the "population bomb", the problem was not related to changes, but
due to basic flaws in the assumptions.
Your doctor will warn you a high sodium diet will kill you. Either you
reduce sodium and survive, invalidating the doctor's prediction, or you
consume 10000 mgs sodium a day until the arteries in your brain explode.
And yet, some people are not sensitive to sodium with respect to blood
pressure.


But the real question: What does this have to do with broadcasting?

Just because environmental issues are talked about on the radio does
not mean that environmental issues are part of broadcasting.


Alan
Disgruntled Customer
2007-02-18 04:05:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
How do you pump more than 100% humidity into the air? Water vapor is
a limited component of the atmosphere. Carbon gasses are unlimited;
they do not precipitate out.
However, they do increase plant growth and photosynthesis, removing
more CO2 as a response.
Unless we are chopping down trees and burying them, the carbon remains in the biosphere, cycling between solid and gas.
Post by Alan
Yet, even with this carbon out of the atmosphere, temperature swings
have been occuring. So, perhaps they occur for other causes than the
CO2 in the atmosphere.
What was the climate like 600,000,000 years ago? That's what we are returning to.
Post by Alan
However, the Medieval Warm Period followed by the Little Ice Age, followed
by the current warming (beginning in the 19th century), clearly all occured
far more recently than millions of years ago.
With more carbon gas in the air than the any of these periods, they are worthless examples until you can prove the atmosphere change is irrelevant.
Post by Alan
Nobody that I know of did anything about the "oncoming ice age", but it
didn't happen.
As for the "population bomb", the problem was not related to changes, but
due to basic flaws in the assumptions.
And nothing has been done since the 1950s to avert overpopulation?
Post by Alan
But the real question: What does this have to do with broadcasting?
Why are you cross-posting to ba.general?
--
Feh. Mad as heck.
John Higdon
2007-02-18 04:18:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Disgruntled Customer
What was the climate like 600,000,000 years ago? That's what we are returning to.
What nonsense.
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Why are you cross-posting to ba.general?
Why are you crossposting to ba.broadcast?
--
John Higdon
+1 408 266 4400
Disgruntled Customer
2007-02-18 04:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Higdon
Post by Disgruntled Customer
What was the climate like 600,000,000 years ago? That's what we are returning to.
What nonsense.
Where did the coal come from?
Post by John Higdon
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Why are you cross-posting to ba.general?
Why are you crossposting to ba.broadcast?
Not my concern you clowns cross-post out of there.
--
Feh. Mad as heck.
Steven
2007-02-18 04:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Alan
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
How do you pump more than 100% humidity into the air? Water vapor is
a limited component of the atmosphere. Carbon gasses are unlimited;
they do not precipitate out.
However, they do increase plant growth and photosynthesis, removing
more CO2 as a response.
Unless we are chopping down trees and burying them, the carbon remains in the biosphere, cycling between solid and gas.
Post by Alan
Yet, even with this carbon out of the atmosphere, temperature swings
have been occuring. So, perhaps they occur for other causes than the
CO2 in the atmosphere.
What was the climate like 600,000,000 years ago? That's what we are returning to.
Post by Alan
However, the Medieval Warm Period followed by the Little Ice Age, followed
by the current warming (beginning in the 19th century), clearly all occured
far more recently than millions of years ago.
With more carbon gas in the air than the any of these periods, they are worthless examples until you can prove the atmosphere change is irrelevant.
Post by Alan
Nobody that I know of did anything about the "oncoming ice age", but it
didn't happen.
As for the "population bomb", the problem was not related to changes, but
due to basic flaws in the assumptions.
And nothing has been done since the 1950s to avert overpopulation?
Post by Alan
But the real question: What does this have to do with broadcasting?
Why are you cross-posting to ba.general?
--
Feh. Mad as heck.
Stan crossposts to at least four groups.

I know that and see it everytime I reply. What are you, a fucking
moron?

I hope this game is over now.
Stan de SD
2007-02-19 00:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Alan
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
How do you pump more than 100% humidity into the air? Water vapor is
a limited component of the atmosphere. Carbon gasses are unlimited;
they do not precipitate out.
However, they do increase plant growth and photosynthesis, removing
more CO2 as a response.
Unless we are chopping down trees and burying them, the carbon remains
in the biosphere, cycling between solid and gas.
Post by Steven
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Alan
Yet, even with this carbon out of the atmosphere, temperature swings
have been occuring. So, perhaps they occur for other causes than the
CO2 in the atmosphere.
What was the climate like 600,000,000 years ago? That's what we are returning to.
Post by Alan
However, the Medieval Warm Period followed by the Little Ice Age, followed
by the current warming (beginning in the 19th century), clearly all occured
far more recently than millions of years ago.
With more carbon gas in the air than the any of these periods, they are
worthless examples until you can prove the atmosphere change is irrelevant.
Post by Steven
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Alan
Nobody that I know of did anything about the "oncoming ice age", but it
didn't happen.
As for the "population bomb", the problem was not related to changes, but
due to basic flaws in the assumptions.
And nothing has been done since the 1950s to avert overpopulation?
Post by Alan
But the real question: What does this have to do with broadcasting?
Why are you cross-posting to ba.general?
--
Feh. Mad as heck.
Stan crossposts to at least four groups.
I'm actually trying to move this over to the political groups, since I know
that the ba.broadcast purists get worked up if the discussion digresses
beyond transmission towers and who DJ'd where back in 1973 - seems I can't
make anyone happy. :Oo
Alan
2007-02-18 05:33:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Alan
Yet, even with this carbon out of the atmosphere, temperature swings
have been occuring. So, perhaps they occur for other causes than the
CO2 in the atmosphere.
What was the climate like 600,000,000 years ago? That's what we are returning to.
I wasn't there. Were you? Are you sure it wasn't during an ice age?

What evidince do you have that we are going in that direction?
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Alan
However, the Medieval Warm Period followed by the Little Ice Age, followed
by the current warming (beginning in the 19th century), clearly all occured
far more recently than millions of years ago.
With more carbon gas in the air than the any of these periods, they are
worthless examples until you can prove the atmosphere change is irrelevant.
They are examples that show the environment changes *without* the
CO2 from man in the atmosphere.

Until you can prove that current climate changes are because of man
released CO2 in the atmosphere, while these others were not, your claims
seem worthless.
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Alan
Nobody that I know of did anything about the "oncoming ice age", but it
didn't happen.
As for the "population bomb", the problem was not related to changes, but
due to basic flaws in the assumptions.
And nothing has been done since the 1950s to avert overpopulation?
Right. The original claim was that food supply would grow linearly
or remain stable while population would grow exponentially. Instead
the food supply grew exponentially, and the population didn't.
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Alan
But the real question: What does this have to do with broadcasting?
Why are you cross-posting to ba.general?
Apparently for the same reason you are posting to ba.broadcast.

Alan
Disgruntled Customer
2007-02-18 09:29:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Alan
Yet, even with this carbon out of the atmosphere, temperature swings
have been occuring. So, perhaps they occur for other causes than the
CO2 in the atmosphere.
What was the climate like 600,000,000 years ago? That's what we are returning to.
I wasn't there. Were you? Are you sure it wasn't during an ice age?
Do you really think all the coal, oil shale, petroluem, etc had been in the atmosphere in any ice age and only laid down in the last few thousand years? Where do you think all this carbon was during any ice age?
Post by Alan
What evidince do you have that we are going in that direction?
Where do you think fossil fuels came from?
Post by Alan
Until you can prove that current climate changes are because of man
released CO2 in the atmosphere, while these others were not, your claims
seem worthless.
My claims are we are playing an experiment with the atmosphere that hasn't been done for a very long time, making your predictions meaningless. Since current national security policy is that a 7% risk requires a 100% response, why are we ignoring this national security risk?
Post by Alan
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Alan
As for the "population bomb", the problem was not related to changes, but
due to basic flaws in the assumptions.
And nothing has been done since the 1950s to avert overpopulation?
Right. The original claim was that food supply would grow linearly
or remain stable while population would grow exponentially. Instead
the food supply grew exponentially, and the population didn't.
And why did the food supply grow faster than the population? Randomness? Good luck? Deliberate policies having extrapolating those trends and intervening in time to prevent a crisis?
Post by Alan
Apparently for the same reason you are posting to ba.broadcast.
Am I?
--
Feh. Mad as heck.
Steven
2007-02-18 03:40:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
How do you pump more than 100% humidity into the air? Water vapor is a limited component of the atmosphere. Carbon gasses are unlimited; they do not precipitate out.
Carbon monoxide has nothing to do with water vapor, H2O
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Stan de SD
(2) Substantial temperature swings have been occurring for millions of
years.
The coal and petroleum has been out of the atmosphere for hundreds of millions of years. More volatile carbon is being added to the ecosystem than since the beginning of multicellular life.
You would be surprised at how coal actually forms and how fast. Forget
dinosaurs and other nonsense.
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Stan de SD
(3) Most of the chicken-little GW models are just that, and don't account
for solar flares or other such cyclical activities.
This cycle has not occurred since the carbon was buried hundreds of millions of years ago.
Again, coal be be EASILY created in a lab in the briefest of time. It
doesn't need a million years and you don't know much about the planet
you are on.
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Stan de SD
(4) Kyoto accords won't solve any GW/greenhouse gas problems.
Not doing anything won't solve anything faster. If you cannot solve a problem completely, which is better: solve it as best you can at the time leaving the final solution until later, or refuse to do anything at all and let the problem become worse instead of at least stablizing it?
Your bullshit is usually stated that taking a ton of carbon out of the air in Los Angeles will not take a ton out of the air in Beijing. True. But it will still be one less ton in the atmosphere of the world. It will also give America the moral high ground to put pressure on China, eventually removing two tons from the air of Beijing.
When it is cheaper to do it that way it will spread. You also ask us
to badger China when we are finding out we need them so they will put
pressure on other countries to behave in manners that don't threaten
the whole world. You look at them like they are a billion Communists
and not China. In doing this you fail the test of history like so many
others
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Stan de SD
(5) Enviro-doom preachers have a long track record of being dead wrong (i.e.
"oncoming ice age" in 1970's, "Population Bomb")
They were based on extrapolations of trends of those times. Those predictions in some cases trigged actions that invalidated their extrapolations. Your doctor will warn you a high sodium diet will kill you. Either you reduce sodium and survive, invalidating the doctor's prediction, or you consume 10000 mgs sodium a day until the arteries in your brain explode.
--
Feh. Mad as heck.
Thanks for the fine imagery at dinnertime!
Disgruntled Customer
2007-02-18 04:05:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
How do you pump more than 100% humidity into the air? Water vapor is a limited component of the atmosphere. Carbon gasses are unlimited; they do not precipitate out.
Carbon monoxide has nothing to do with water vapor, H2O
Is carbon monoxide a carbon gas? Is there more carbon is the biosphere today than a hundred years ago? Where did it come from?
Post by Steven
You would be surprised at how coal actually forms and how fast. Forget
dinosaurs and other nonsense.
Is it being formed as fast as fossil fuels are being burnt?
Post by Steven
Again, coal be be EASILY created in a lab in the briefest of time. It
doesn't need a million years and you don't know much about the planet
you are on.
Actually it doesn't need to be converted to coal. Simply cutting down trees and burying an equal mass of carbon out of the biosphere at the same rate fossil fuels being reintroduced would keep the carbon balanced in the atmosphere.
Post by Steven
When it is cheaper to do it that way it will spread. You also ask us
The people currently profiting are not the ones expected to insure against the whatever damage they are risking. It is always cheaper one you are not liable for your actions.
--
Feh. Mad as heck.
Stan de SD
2007-02-18 06:55:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
How do you pump more than 100% humidity into the air? Water vapor is a
limited component of the atmosphere. Carbon gasses are unlimited; they do
not precipitate out.

Show me an energy balance that accounts for (a) solar radiation, (b)
blackbody radiation from the earth's surface (c) the
absorption/reflection/transmission of water vapor as a function of
atmospheric temperature, (d) same for concentrations of 200ppm and 400ppm
for CO2, and (e) equilibrium temperatures for the earth surface based on the
2 concentrations of CO2 (and of course accounting for the change in vapor
pressure of water). If you can't do that much, then STFU about so-called
"global warming". I'm sick of listening to idiots who wasted their college
days on sociology and "ethnic studies" who can't do a simple fucking
thermodynamic balance, lecturing others on the science of global warming. If
you can accept the challenge fine, otherwise you're an ignorant asshole as
far as I'm concerned. Fuck off and have a nice day. :O|
Mike Nelson
2007-02-18 20:31:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
Show me an energy balance that accounts for (a) solar radiation, (b)
blackbody radiation from the earth's surface (c) the
absorption/reflection/transmission of water vapor as a function of
atmospheric temperature, (d) same for concentrations of 200ppm and 400ppm
for CO2, and (e) equilibrium temperatures for the earth surface based on the
2 concentrations of CO2 (and of course accounting for the change in vapor
pressure of water). If you can't do that much, then STFU about so-called
"global warming". I'm sick of listening to idiots who wasted their college
days on sociology and "ethnic studies" who can't do a simple fucking
thermodynamic balance, lecturing others on the science of global warming. If
you can accept the challenge fine, otherwise you're an ignorant asshole as
far as I'm concerned. Fuck off and have a nice day. :O|
I'm sure these guys are up to the challenge:

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) brings together
hundreds of the world’s leading scientists to study the effects of human
activity on the Earth’s climate, the impacts of climate change on
environment and society, and options for limiting climate change. This
year, the IPCC is releasing its fourth assessment of climate change
science, which shows with unprecedented confidence that human beings are
changing the climate. The summary report for the first of IPCC’s three
working group reports was released on February 2, 2007. This site will
cover developments related to all IPCC working groups over the coming
weeks and months.

http://www.ipccfacts.org/
Steven
2007-02-18 08:44:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
Show me an energy balance that accounts for (a) solar radiation, (b)
blackbody radiation from the earth's surface (c) the
absorption/reflection/transmission of water vapor as a function of
atmospheric temperature, (d) same for concentrations of 200ppm and 400ppm
for CO2, and (e) equilibrium temperatures for the earth surface based on the
2 concentrations of CO2 (and of course accounting for the change in vapor
pressure of water). If you can't do that much, then STFU about so-called
"global warming". I'm sick of listening to idiots who wasted their college
days on sociology and "ethnic studies" who can't do a simple fucking
thermodynamic balance, lecturing others on the science of global warming. If
you can accept the challenge fine, otherwise you're an ignorant asshole as
far as I'm concerned. Fuck off and have a nice day. :O|
The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) brings together
hundreds of the world's leading scientists to study the effects of human
activity on the Earth's climate, the impacts of climate change on
environment and society, and options for limiting climate change. This
year, the IPCC is releasing its fourth assessment of climate change
science, which shows with unprecedented confidence that human beings are
changing the climate. The summary report for the first of IPCC's three
working group reports was released on February 2, 2007. This site will
cover developments related to all IPCC working groups over the coming
weeks and months.
http://www.ipccfacts.org/
We're still going to be dead when all the expected **** happens. Don't
rationalize it any more.
Stan de SD
2007-02-18 18:01:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
Show me an energy balance that accounts for (a) solar radiation, (b)
blackbody radiation from the earth's surface (c) the
absorption/reflection/transmission of water vapor as a function of
atmospheric temperature, (d) same for concentrations of 200ppm and 400ppm
for CO2, and (e) equilibrium temperatures for the earth surface based on the
2 concentrations of CO2 (and of course accounting for the change in vapor
pressure of water). If you can't do that much, then STFU about so-called
"global warming". I'm sick of listening to idiots who wasted their college
days on sociology and "ethnic studies" who can't do a simple fucking
thermodynamic balance, lecturing others on the science of global warming. If
you can accept the challenge fine, otherwise you're an ignorant asshole as
far as I'm concerned. Fuck off and have a nice day. :O|
The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) brings together
hundreds of the world's leading scientists to study the effects of human
activity on the Earth's climate, the impacts of climate change on
environment and society, and options for limiting climate change. This
year, the IPCC is releasing its fourth assessment of climate change
science, which shows with unprecedented confidence that human beings are
changing the climate. The summary report for the first of IPCC's three
working group reports was released on February 2, 2007. This site will
cover developments related to all IPCC working groups over the coming
weeks and months.
http://www.ipccfacts.org/
We're still going to be dead when all the expected **** happens. Don't
rationalize it any more.
Really? Did the entire population die off when Greenland was warm enough to
support vineyards, forests, and human habitation? Or are you part of the
eco-chicken-little crowd as well?
Steven
2007-02-18 21:47:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Steven
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
Show me an energy balance that accounts for (a) solar radiation, (b)
blackbody radiation from the earth's surface (c) the
absorption/reflection/transmission of water vapor as a function of
atmospheric temperature, (d) same for concentrations of 200ppm and
400ppm
Post by Steven
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
for CO2, and (e) equilibrium temperatures for the earth surface based
on the
Post by Steven
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
2 concentrations of CO2 (and of course accounting for the change in
vapor
Post by Steven
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
pressure of water). If you can't do that much, then STFU about
so-called
Post by Steven
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
"global warming". I'm sick of listening to idiots who wasted their
college
Post by Steven
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
days on sociology and "ethnic studies" who can't do a simple fucking
thermodynamic balance, lecturing others on the science of global
warming. If
Post by Steven
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
you can accept the challenge fine, otherwise you're an ignorant
asshole as
Post by Steven
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
far as I'm concerned. Fuck off and have a nice day. :O|
The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) brings together
hundreds of the world's leading scientists to study the effects of human
activity on the Earth's climate, the impacts of climate change on
environment and society, and options for limiting climate change. This
year, the IPCC is releasing its fourth assessment of climate change
science, which shows with unprecedented confidence that human beings are
changing the climate. The summary report for the first of IPCC's three
working group reports was released on February 2, 2007. This site will
cover developments related to all IPCC working groups over the coming
weeks and months.
http://www.ipccfacts.org/
We're still going to be dead when all the expected **** happens. Don't
rationalize it any more.
Really? Did the entire population die off when Greenland was warm enough to
support vineyards, forests, and human habitation? Or are you part of the
eco-chicken-little crowd as well?
Sarcasm on MY part, Stan. I'm personally tired of the subject and at
that point my back was sore and loose from working hard all night. I
wish some of them would build a biodome and wait for Jesus.
Stan de SD
2007-02-18 23:03:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Steven
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
Show me an energy balance that accounts for (a) solar radiation, (b)
blackbody radiation from the earth's surface (c) the
absorption/reflection/transmission of water vapor as a function of
atmospheric temperature, (d) same for concentrations of 200ppm and
400ppm
Post by Steven
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
for CO2, and (e) equilibrium temperatures for the earth surface based
on the
Post by Steven
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
2 concentrations of CO2 (and of course accounting for the change in
vapor
Post by Steven
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
pressure of water). If you can't do that much, then STFU about
so-called
Post by Steven
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
"global warming". I'm sick of listening to idiots who wasted their
college
Post by Steven
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
days on sociology and "ethnic studies" who can't do a simple fucking
thermodynamic balance, lecturing others on the science of global
warming. If
Post by Steven
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
you can accept the challenge fine, otherwise you're an ignorant
asshole as
Post by Steven
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
far as I'm concerned. Fuck off and have a nice day. :O|
The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) brings together
hundreds of the world's leading scientists to study the effects of human
activity on the Earth's climate, the impacts of climate change on
environment and society, and options for limiting climate change. This
year, the IPCC is releasing its fourth assessment of climate change
science, which shows with unprecedented confidence that human beings are
changing the climate. The summary report for the first of IPCC's three
working group reports was released on February 2, 2007. This site will
cover developments related to all IPCC working groups over the coming
weeks and months.
http://www.ipccfacts.org/
We're still going to be dead when all the expected **** happens. Don't
rationalize it any more.
Really? Did the entire population die off when Greenland was warm enough to
support vineyards, forests, and human habitation? Or are you part of the
eco-chicken-little crowd as well?
Sarcasm on MY part, Stan. I'm personally tired of the subject and at
that point my back was sore and loose from working hard all night. I
wish some of them would build a biodome and wait for Jesus.
Sorry, Steven. I'll set the flame-thrower on "fine-tune" mode next time...
:Oo
Steven
2007-02-18 21:59:48 UTC
Permalink
I will give everyone ample notice before installing a permeability
tuner to my frontal lobe and promise none of the dubious Sprague
"black beauty" caps will be used.
Steven
2007-02-18 22:08:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven
I will give everyone ample notice before installing a permeability
tuner to my frontal lobe and promise none of the dubious Sprague
"black beauty" caps will be used.
I THINK Stan's a Republican (which doesn't matter to me) and I know
I'm a Democrat, and both of us seem to feel you guys should quit
wasting all your fucking time on Usenet and do something USEFUL
towards how you feel.

There's a huge idea...won't happen though.
Stan de SD
2007-02-18 18:00:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
Show me an energy balance that accounts for (a) solar radiation, (b)
blackbody radiation from the earth's surface (c) the
absorption/reflection/transmission of water vapor as a function of
atmospheric temperature, (d) same for concentrations of 200ppm and 400ppm
for CO2, and (e) equilibrium temperatures for the earth surface based on the
2 concentrations of CO2 (and of course accounting for the change in vapor
pressure of water). If you can't do that much, then STFU about so-called
"global warming". I'm sick of listening to idiots who wasted their college
days on sociology and "ethnic studies" who can't do a simple fucking
thermodynamic balance, lecturing others on the science of global warming. If
you can accept the challenge fine, otherwise you're an ignorant asshole as
far as I'm concerned. Fuck off and have a nice day. :O|
In other words, you aren't, because you don't know WTF you are taking about.
However, since you think the IPCC guys know it all, show me where they have
done any type of thermal balance showing equilibrium surface temps involving
the 2 different concentrations of CO2, OK?
Rudy Canoza
2007-02-18 18:55:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Stan de SD
Show me an energy balance that accounts for (a) solar radiation, (b)
blackbody radiation from the earth's surface (c) the
absorption/reflection/transmission of water vapor as a function of
atmospheric temperature, (d) same for concentrations of 200ppm and
400ppm
Post by Stan de SD
for CO2, and (e) equilibrium temperatures for the earth surface based on
the
Post by Stan de SD
2 concentrations of CO2 (and of course accounting for the change in
vapor
Post by Stan de SD
pressure of water). If you can't do that much, then STFU about so-called
"global warming". I'm sick of listening to idiots who wasted their
college
Post by Stan de SD
days on sociology and "ethnic studies" who can't do a simple fucking
thermodynamic balance, lecturing others on the science of global
warming. If
Post by Stan de SD
you can accept the challenge fine, otherwise you're an ignorant asshole
as
Post by Stan de SD
far as I'm concerned. Fuck off and have a nice day. :O|
In other words, you aren't, because you don't know WTF you are taking about.
Nor do you, stain. You are 100% INCOMPETENT in this field.

So, where did you find the material you slavishly did a
copy-and-paste from, stain?
Stan de SD
2007-02-18 23:01:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rudy Canoza
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Stan de SD
Show me an energy balance that accounts for (a) solar radiation, (b)
blackbody radiation from the earth's surface (c) the
absorption/reflection/transmission of water vapor as a function of
atmospheric temperature, (d) same for concentrations of 200ppm and
400ppm
Post by Stan de SD
for CO2, and (e) equilibrium temperatures for the earth surface based on
the
Post by Stan de SD
2 concentrations of CO2 (and of course accounting for the change in
vapor
Post by Stan de SD
pressure of water). If you can't do that much, then STFU about so-called
"global warming". I'm sick of listening to idiots who wasted their
college
Post by Stan de SD
days on sociology and "ethnic studies" who can't do a simple fucking
thermodynamic balance, lecturing others on the science of global
warming. If
Post by Stan de SD
you can accept the challenge fine, otherwise you're an ignorant asshole
as
Post by Stan de SD
far as I'm concerned. Fuck off and have a nice day. :O|
In other words, you aren't, because you don't know WTF you are taking about.
Nor do you, stain. You are 100% INCOMPETENT in this field.
Present evidence to contradict your case.
Post by Rudy Canoza
So, where did you find the material you slavishly did a
copy-and-paste from, stain?
No cut and paste at all, you ignorant assholes. I do heat transfer models as
a course of my consulting work, and my chemical engineering/thermodynamics
background provides a lot more useful starting point for this discussion
than anything you learned in your Chicano Studies coursework. Care to take
me up on the challenge? Or did they not cover application of Boltzmann
distributions to black-body radiation in "Blaming the Gringos 101"? :O|
Mike Nelson
2007-02-19 17:16:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
In other words, you aren't, because you don't know WTF you are taking about.
However, since you think the IPCC guys know it all, show me where they have
done any type of thermal balance showing equilibrium surface temps involving
the 2 different concentrations of CO2, OK?
Yes, my deferral to the "IPCC guys" is a tacit admission that
I don't know WTF you are talking about. Is your little test
supposed to be definitive in confirming or denying the
reality of global warming or the forcing effect of CO2?
I think the earth's climate system is much more complex
than that, OK?

I think the consensus among people who study climate science,
of which the "IPCC guys" are representative, is that global
warming is real and that man's activities are forcing it.
They have accounted for variations in the earth's orbit
around the sun, variations in the sun's output, albedo due
clouds and snow, forest cover, aerosols due to volcanism,
ad infinitum. It's certainly not as simple as atmospheric
concentrations of H20, CO2, CH4, and other greenhouse gases.
Rudy Canoza
2007-02-19 05:24:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
In other words, you aren't, because you don't know WTF you are taking about.
However, since you think the IPCC guys know it all, show me where they have
done any type of thermal balance showing equilibrium surface temps involving
the 2 different concentrations of CO2, OK?
Yes, my deferral to the "IPCC guys" is a tacit admission that
I don't know WTF you are talking about.
stain doesn't know what he's talking about, either,
Mike. He did a bone-headed copy-and-paste job of that
crap. stain has no expertise - none whatever - in
climate studies.
Post by Mike Nelson
Is your little test
supposed to be definitive in confirming or denying the
reality of global warming or the forcing effect of CO2?
I think the earth's climate system is much more complex
than that, OK?
I think the consensus among people who study climate science,
of which the "IPCC guys" are representative, is that global
warming is real and that man's activities are forcing it.
They have accounted for variations in the earth's orbit
around the sun, variations in the sun's output, albedo due
clouds and snow, forest cover, aerosols due to volcanism,
ad infinitum. It's certainly not as simple as atmospheric
concentrations of H20, CO2, CH4, and other greenhouse gases.
Bill Z.
2007-02-19 06:10:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
In other words, you aren't, because you don't know WTF you are
taking about. However, since you think the IPCC guys know it
all, show me where they have done any type of thermal balance
showing equilibrium surface temps involving the 2 different
concentrations of CO2, OK?
Yes, my deferral to the "IPCC guys" is a tacit admission that
I don't know WTF you are talking about.
stain doesn't know what he's talking about, either, Mike. He did a
bone-headed copy-and-paste job of that crap. stain has no expertise -
none whatever - in climate studies.
I might add that his question is a rhetorical trick, and while I know
what he is pretending to talk about, the fact of the matter is that
modeling the climate requires a supercomputer - the larger (in memory)
and faster, the better - and as much time to run the programs as you
can get. His stuff about "equilibrium surface temperatures" is
absolutely comical as the earth is not in thermodynamic equilibrium.
If it were, the temperature at each point on the surface would not
change with time. Basically he's throwing some terminology around
with the hope that you won't understand it and will not know what to
say.
Rudy Canoza
2007-02-19 06:40:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
In other words, you aren't, because you don't know WTF you are
taking about. However, since you think the IPCC guys know it
all, show me where they have done any type of thermal balance
showing equilibrium surface temps involving the 2 different
concentrations of CO2, OK?
Yes, my deferral to the "IPCC guys" is a tacit admission that
I don't know WTF you are talking about.
stain doesn't know what he's talking about, either, Mike. He did a
bone-headed copy-and-paste job of that crap. stain has no expertise -
none whatever - in climate studies.
I might add that his question is a rhetorical trick, and while I know
what he is pretending to talk about, the fact of the matter is that
modeling the climate requires a supercomputer - the larger (in memory)
and faster, the better - and as much time to run the programs as you
can get. His stuff about "equilibrium surface temperatures" is
absolutely comical as the earth is not in thermodynamic equilibrium.
If it were, the temperature at each point on the surface would not
change with time. Basically he's throwing some terminology around
with the hope that you won't understand it and will not know what to
say.
I know that I don't understand it. I also know that
stain doesn't understand it, and is pretending to be
knowledgeable about it. I know that he's parroting
something he found on some conservative's anti-science
website.

"The IPCC guys" are, in fact, experts in the field.
stain cannot cite anyone who is an expert who
categorically dismisses the conclusions of the IPCC
report, and stain certainly has no credentials to be
dismissing the report. The way that stain bandies
about some pseudo-scientific-sounding terminology
reminds me *exactly* of the "intelligent design"
babblers trying to "refute" evolution.
Stan de SD
2007-02-19 21:01:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rudy Canoza
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
In other words, you aren't, because you don't know WTF you are
taking about. However, since you think the IPCC guys know it
all, show me where they have done any type of thermal balance
showing equilibrium surface temps involving the 2 different
concentrations of CO2, OK?
Yes, my deferral to the "IPCC guys" is a tacit admission that
I don't know WTF you are talking about.
stain doesn't know what he's talking about, either, Mike. He did a
bone-headed copy-and-paste job of that crap. stain has no expertise -
none whatever - in climate studies.
I might add that his question is a rhetorical trick, and while I know
what he is pretending to talk about, the fact of the matter is that
modeling the climate requires a supercomputer - the larger (in memory)
and faster, the better - and as much time to run the programs as you
can get. His stuff about "equilibrium surface temperatures" is
absolutely comical as the earth is not in thermodynamic equilibrium.
If it were, the temperature at each point on the surface would not
change with time. Basically he's throwing some terminology around
with the hope that you won't understand it and will not know what to
say.
I know that I don't understand it. I also know that
stain doesn't understand it, and is pretending to be
knowledgeable about it. I know that he's parroting
something he found on some conservative's anti-science
website.
Tell about your science/technical degree, Rudy - Lemme Guess: "Multicultural
Engineering", right? ROTFLMAO!!!
Rudy Canoza
2007-02-19 22:21:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Rudy Canoza
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
In other words, you aren't, because you don't know WTF you are
taking about. However, since you think the IPCC guys know it
all, show me where they have done any type of thermal balance
showing equilibrium surface temps involving the 2 different
concentrations of CO2, OK?
Yes, my deferral to the "IPCC guys" is a tacit admission that
I don't know WTF you are talking about.
stain doesn't know what he's talking about, either, Mike. He did a
bone-headed copy-and-paste job of that crap. stain has no expertise -
none whatever - in climate studies.
I might add that his question is a rhetorical trick, and while I know
what he is pretending to talk about, the fact of the matter is that
modeling the climate requires a supercomputer - the larger (in memory)
and faster, the better - and as much time to run the programs as you
can get. His stuff about "equilibrium surface temperatures" is
absolutely comical as the earth is not in thermodynamic equilibrium.
If it were, the temperature at each point on the surface would not
change with time. Basically he's throwing some terminology around
with the hope that you won't understand it and will not know what to
say.
I know that I don't understand it. I also know that
stain doesn't understand it, and is pretending to be
knowledgeable about it. I know that he's parroting
something he found on some conservative's anti-science
website.
Tell about your science/technical degree, Rudy
Talk about your COMPLETE LACK of any background in
*any* science pertaining to climate, stain.
Bill Z.
2007-02-20 00:16:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
I might add that his question is a rhetorical trick, and while I know
what he is pretending to talk about, the fact of the matter is that
modeling the climate requires a supercomputer - the larger (in memory)
and faster, the better - and as much time to run the programs as you
can get. His stuff about "equilibrium surface temperatures" is
absolutely comical as the earth is not in thermodynamic equilibrium.
If it were, the temperature at each point on the surface would not
change with time. Basically he's throwing some terminology around
with the hope that you won't understand it and will not know what to
say.
I know that I don't understand it. I also know that stain doesn't
understand it, and is pretending to be knowledgeable about it. I know
that he's parroting something he found on some conservative's
anti-science website.
"The IPCC guys" are, in fact, experts in the field. stain cannot cite
anyone who is an expert who categorically dismisses the conclusions of
the IPCC report, and stain certainly has no credentials to be
dismissing the report. The way that stain bandies about some
pseudo-scientific-sounding terminology reminds me *exactly* of the
"intelligent design" babblers trying to "refute" evolution.
The "IPCC guys" are the ones who have the supercomputers that are
used to model climate changes! It is the sort of thing that only
a relatively few people do because it is very expensive.

Stain's post wasn't all "psuedo-scientific-sounding terminology": for
example, you do have to know about blackbody radiation to understand
what is going on. The term just means the electromagnetic radiation
you get from objects at a particular temperature, but we know how to
compute how the frequency distribution and intensity changes with
temperature. When everything is in thermal equilibrium, all you see
is the blackbody radiation and you can't discern objects sitting in
it. That's why objects seem to kind of merge together and look the
same color in a campfire (the temperature is not really uniform -
otherwise you would not be able to pick out anything at all).

Curiously, I heard a comment about global warming in passing in a
graduate level physics course. If you do a naive computation to
estimate the average temperature of the earth, you end up with a
number that is too low - everything should be frozen. The "global
warming" provided by the natural level of C02, etc., raises the
temperature and we'd be freezing our you know what off without it.

You should keep in mind that the term "global warming" is actually a
bit of a misnomer: what we are really doing is changing the
composition of the atmosphere by adding gasses that not highly
transparent to blackbody radiation at 300 K (at the frequency where
the radiation is most intense), but are transparent to radiation at
6000 K, the temperature of the sun. If all else is equal, the earth's
temperature rises by an amount that is relatively easy to calculate.
The problem is that the climate may change as a result of this
additional energy so it is difficult to predict precisely what will
happen. If we ignore the issue, however, we are actually risking a
catastrophic outcome. The "conservative" approach should be to take
global warming seriously as a risk factor. It's just common sense:
when you are standing on thin ice, it is prudent not to jump up and
down.
Rudy Canoza
2007-02-20 02:41:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Bill Z.
I might add that his question is a rhetorical trick, and while I know
what he is pretending to talk about, the fact of the matter is that
modeling the climate requires a supercomputer - the larger (in memory)
and faster, the better - and as much time to run the programs as you
can get. His stuff about "equilibrium surface temperatures" is
absolutely comical as the earth is not in thermodynamic equilibrium.
If it were, the temperature at each point on the surface would not
change with time. Basically he's throwing some terminology around
with the hope that you won't understand it and will not know what to
say.
I know that I don't understand it. I also know that stain doesn't
understand it, and is pretending to be knowledgeable about it. I know
that he's parroting something he found on some conservative's
anti-science website.
"The IPCC guys" are, in fact, experts in the field. stain cannot cite
anyone who is an expert who categorically dismisses the conclusions of
the IPCC report, and stain certainly has no credentials to be
dismissing the report. The way that stain bandies about some
pseudo-scientific-sounding terminology reminds me *exactly* of the
"intelligent design" babblers trying to "refute" evolution.
The "IPCC guys" are the ones who have the supercomputers that are
used to model climate changes! It is the sort of thing that only
a relatively few people do because it is very expensive.
Stain's post wasn't all "psuedo-scientific-sounding terminology": for
example, you do have to know about blackbody radiation to understand
what is going on.
But stain *DOES NOT* know anything about it.
Post by Bill Z.
The term just means the electromagnetic radiation
you get from objects at a particular temperature, but we know how to
compute how the frequency distribution and intensity changes with
temperature. When everything is in thermal equilibrium, all you see
is the blackbody radiation and you can't discern objects sitting in
it. That's why objects seem to kind of merge together and look the
same color in a campfire (the temperature is not really uniform -
otherwise you would not be able to pick out anything at all).
Curiously, I heard a comment about global warming in passing in a
graduate level physics course. If you do a naive computation to
estimate the average temperature of the earth, you end up with a
number that is too low - everything should be frozen. The "global
warming" provided by the natural level of C02, etc., raises the
temperature and we'd be freezing our you know what off without it.
You should keep in mind that the term "global warming" is actually a
bit of a misnomer: what we are really doing is changing the
composition of the atmosphere by adding gasses that not highly
transparent to blackbody radiation at 300 K (at the frequency where
the radiation is most intense), but are transparent to radiation at
6000 K, the temperature of the sun. If all else is equal, the earth's
temperature rises by an amount that is relatively easy to calculate.
The problem is that the climate may change as a result of this
additional energy so it is difficult to predict precisely what will
happen. If we ignore the issue, however, we are actually risking a
catastrophic outcome. The "conservative" approach should be to take
when you are standing on thin ice, it is prudent not to jump up and
down.
Bill Z.
2007-02-20 06:01:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rudy Canoza
But stain *DOES NOT* know anything about it.
I didn't claim he did. It's just that some of the terminology was OK
(and some didn't make any sense in context).
Disgruntled Customer
2007-02-19 11:22:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
I might add that his question is a rhetorical trick, and while I know
what he is pretending to talk about, the fact of the matter is that
modeling the climate requires a supercomputer - the larger (in memory)
and faster, the better - and as much time to run the programs as you
Some of the ideas are simple, on the order of recognizing when you pour water in a full glass it will overflow, or the water you pour from one glass to another decreases the volume of one and increases the volume of another even if the total volume doesn't change. It doesn't take a supercomputer to understand the system is being driven in new directions than the recent past. While the actual predictions are complicated, realizing there is a risk is not.

Current American defense policy is to react overwhelming to even mild risks. When the reactions favor Republican party faithful and campaign contributors. If the reaction would harm campaign contributors even overwhelming risks are ignored.
--
Feh. Mad as heck.
Stan de SD
2007-02-19 21:00:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rudy Canoza
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
In other words, you aren't, because you don't know WTF you are taking about.
However, since you think the IPCC guys know it all, show me where they have
done any type of thermal balance showing equilibrium surface temps involving
the 2 different concentrations of CO2, OK?
Yes, my deferral to the "IPCC guys" is a tacit admission that
I don't know WTF you are talking about.
stain doesn't know what he's talking about, either,
Mike. He did a bone-headed copy-and-paste job of that
crap.
If you really think so, show me where I cut and pasted from Rudy... It's
clear you have NO idea of the mechanism of heat transfer in fluids, or what
I am talking about...
Rudy Canoza
2007-02-19 22:22:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Rudy Canoza
Post by Mike Nelson
Post by Stan de SD
In other words, you aren't, because you don't know WTF you are taking about.
However, since you think the IPCC guys know it all, show me where they have
done any type of thermal balance showing equilibrium surface temps involving
the 2 different concentrations of CO2, OK?
Yes, my deferral to the "IPCC guys" is a tacit admission that
I don't know WTF you are talking about.
stain doesn't know what he's talking about, either,
Mike. He did a bone-headed copy-and-paste job of that
crap.
If you really think so, show me where I cut and pasted from Rudy.
You do not have ANY competence in the science required
to study climate. Stop trying to perpetrate a fraud.
Freedom Fighter
2007-02-19 22:35:08 UTC
Permalink
CONSERVATIVES VS. LIBERALS: THE NATURE OF THE BEAST

It all began a hundred thousand years ago on a ledge in front of a
cave. A female homo sapiens walked by, attracting the attention of
a male. The male stepped forward and smacked her over the head with
his club. WHACK! He then dragged the unconscious female into his
cave for sex.

One day there were two males standing in front of a cave when a
female walked by. The first raised his arm to club the female, but
the second male communicated to him that clubbing females over the
head to have sex was not nice. WHACK! WHACK! The first male stepped
over the unconscious second male and proceeded to rape the female.
On that day the first liberal paid the price for expressing a new
idea.

Things didn't change much for thousands of years until the advent
of projectile weapons. This was first symbolized by the David and
Goliath story in the Bible, where the big strong brute was laid
flat by the small but smarter boy. Once brute strength was no
longer the controlling factor in social interaction, liberal ideas
slowly gained a foothold in human culture, and civilization began.

Throughout human history, the price for advocating tolerance and
progressive change has been paid in threats, beatings,
excommunication, incarceration, torture, murder, assassination, and
execution. Countless liberals have paid the ultimate price for
their humanity. Though Jesus Christ is the most famous, names in
recent history that come to mind are Gandhi, Martin Luther King
Jr., John Lennon, and Robert Kennedy.

Today there are many conservatives - individuals, groups, and
nations - who use threats and violence to silence the voices of
reason, tolerance, and progress. Here in America it is seen in
racists and homophobes beating blacks and gays, sometimes to death,
not for money or out of anger generated by interactive cause, but
because of religious or racial intolerance and secular bigotry.

Alan Berg on talk radio was a strong voice against a conservative
organization called the Aryan Nation. For thus exercising his
freedom of speech, he was shot dead while walking his dog in front
of his house.

David Rice is a man on death row in Washington State who has no
remorse whatsoever for entering the home of a family of four and
carving out their living hearts only because he heard they were
"liberals." He got their names from a Democratic Party membership
list.

Right-wingers Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols killed 168 men,
women, and children as an act of protest. What liberals have ever
committed such an abominable atrocity?

The most abominable atrocity in several decades is the 9/11
terrorist attacks in which thousands of innocent civilians were
murdered. The alleged perpetrators, Osama Bin Laden and the al
Qaeda-Taliban terrorists, epitomize the right-wing religious
fundamentalist mentality.

Some believe that the 9/11 attacks were deliberately allowed to happen,
exacerbated, or even perpetrated by radical right-wing elements within
our own government to further their fascistic agenda. Two buildings
were hit by planes, but THREE collapsed. The evidence that the three
collapsed buildings were brought down with demolition explosives put in
place BEFORE the attacks is very strong.

Arguing that such horrendous crimes are not political in nature or
that they are not done primarily by conservatives is utter
nonsense. Look back:

Who nailed who to a cross?

Who were the Loyalists to the totalitarian monarchy of King George?

Who started our Civil War to defend slavery?

Who fought to keep women as property, and now fights their
sovereignty over their own bodies in the freedom to choose
abortion?

Who fought against child labor statutes?

Who fought against the concept of free public education?

Who fought against the right of women to vote?

Who fought against anti-trust and anti-monopoly legislation?

Who fought against workers organizing?

Who fought against government controls on manufacturers of cars
"unsafe at any speed?"

Who killed several thousand innocent civilians in the 9/11
terrorist attacks?

Who started WW2, murdered 13 million and caused the death of 40
million more?

Who defended Jim Crow for a hundred years?

Who fought against voting rights, civil rights, social security,
health care for the elderly, and minimum wages?

Who fights against environmental protection statutes?

Who opposes equal rights for gays and other free-lifestyle
minorities?

Who cruelly opposes physician-assisted dying for suffering,
terminally ill patients soon to die anyway?

Who is sabotaging the separation of Church and State, and all our
other Constitutional rights, freedoms, and protections?

Who are the moralizing hypocrites forcing their puritanical
inhibitions and prohibitions on ALL Americans via legislation and
draconian, police-state enforcement practices?

Who always puts personal gain and corporate wealth and power above
the common good?

CONSERVATIVES OR LIBERALS?

The historic, undeniable truth is that these evils are THE NATURE
OF THE CONSERVATIVE BEAST!

Conservatives have distorted and demonized the word "liberal,"
whose true political meaning is favoring progressive change,
humanistic values, and opposition to authoritarianism. They
identify it with governmental waste and tolerance of criminality,
when in fact they themselves are guilty of abuses such as corporate
welfare bail-outs and tax evasion, fraud against investors, and
other white-collar crime. Conservatives fear and oppose all change
and progress beyond "what's in it for me?"

At the core of conservatism is the Machiavellian bully - the
despotic practitioner of "might makes right," craving wealth and
power, and willing to use any and all means to get them.
Conservatism is the philosophy of the caveman wearing a business
suit.

AND THE CAVEMENS' CLUBS CAN NOW DESTROY OUR EARTH!
Rudy Canoza
2007-02-18 18:25:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
How do you pump more than 100% humidity into the air? Water vapor is a
limited component of the atmosphere. Carbon gasses are unlimited; they do
not precipitate out.
Show me an energy balance that accounts for (a) solar radiation, (b)
blackbody radiation from the earth's surface (c) the
absorption/reflection/transmission of [snip remaining PLAGIARISM by Stain]
You are not a climate scientist, and you merely
copied-and-pasted all that bullshit.

The FACT, stain, is that an *OVERWHELMING* majority of
specialists in the study of climate have concluded that:

a) global warming is occurring
b) humans are causing it

You are INCOMPETENT to refute their conclusions,
because you have no expertise in the field; none
whatever. I have none in the field as well, but as an
intelligent and unbiased lay person, I am able to
recognize that those who do overwhelmingly agree with
the conclusions above, which is what makes it THE
consensus.

You need to learn to stop being a flunky for highly
partisan political groups.
Alistair Sim
2007-04-17 00:53:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rudy Canoza
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
How do you pump more than 100% humidity into the air? Water vapor is a
limited component of the atmosphere. Carbon gasses are unlimited; they do
not precipitate out.
Show me an energy balance that accounts for (a) solar radiation, (b)
blackbody radiation from the earth's surface (c) the
absorption/reflection/transmission of [snip remaining PLAGIARISM by Stain]
You are not a climate scientist, and you merely
copied-and-pasted all that bullshit.
The FACT, stain, is that an *OVERWHELMING* majority of
a) global warming is occurring
b) humans are causing it
You are INCOMPETENT to refute their conclusions,
because you have no expertise in the field; none
whatever. I have none in the field as well, but as an
intelligent and unbiased lay person, I am able to
recognize that those who do overwhelmingly agree with
the conclusions above, which is what makes it THE
consensus.
You need to learn to stop being a flunky for highly
partisan political groups.
Your a big talker. Isn't it easy to sit behind your PC and bellow out
expletives to people you do not know or know you. I am willing to
wager that you are a fat slob of a pussy that could not beat your way
out of a wet paper bag. The only exercise you do is run your big foul
mouth and move your fingers across a keyboard. I am positive that
since you are a squeamish wimp, and too chickenshit like a typical
fascist to participate in an actual battle, you prefer to disambiguate
comical right wing tripe based entirely on your hidebound opinions
about liberalism . Soon the word conservative will have a negative
coloring as the word liberal, because the left allowed the right to
define them without going on the offensive and defining the right in
counter point. I feel that your entire diatribe against liberals is
nothing but a reaction to the progress minorities have made in terms
of education and prosperity. I sense a certain amount of jealousy and
envy on your part because you are a loser.

The Coming Party Realignment
by LAWRENCE GOODWYN

[from the April 30, 2007 issue]

Intransigence and myopia. The flowering of these habits within the GOP
is driving the Democratic Party to clarity. And the potential for
serious consequences is real. It is not enough to suggest that a big
Democratic win is possible in 2008. Something far more strategic is at
work: large-scale party realignment with historic implications.

None of this seems apparent, of course. Indeed, for a number of
hopeful partisans, such a possibility seems beyond reason itself.
Politics is assumed to be modulated through the inherited customs of
the two major parties. Complacency and sloganeering are settled habits
among Republicans. Clarity, on the other hand, can scarcely be called
an ingrained cultural habit among Democrats. In the face of corporate
saber-rattling, a fair degree of communal Democratic wilting is highly
probable. This traditional analysis, while time-tested and even
accurate as far as it goes, is leading to inside-the-Beltway
conclusions that are superficial and obsolete.

Actually, very strong countervailing pressures are at work. But
Americans are no longer well instructed about how to see them. Real
life contains two elements of democratic politics that are rarely
discussed in tandem--engaged popular aspiration (unidentified people
out there in America) and cooperating elites (identifiable in
Washington). Such a range of citizens is not routinely analyzed
together because, politically, they are not assumed to be together.
Instead, people find the nominal institutions of democracy, such as
the US Congress, limping along in a decayed condition, insufficiently
independent of lobbyists. The outlying population is also found
limping, assumed to be insufficiently informed to act with relevance.
Since everyone is affected by the surrounding culture in which they
have been raised and to which they remain attached, the same decayed
condition besets the reporters who cover it, the scholars who brood
over it, the consultants who try to make a living handling it and the
politicians who seek passable footing through it. To find some footing
for ourselves, we need to catch the connections on those rare
occasions when popular and elite modes of politics function at the
same time and have serious ideas in concert. It does not happen often
in history. But it happens. When it does, expectation can begin to
replace resignation.

It is, in fact, beginning to happen now. Activity among people "out
there" surfaced soon after the 2006 elections, first as a new way to
think about political possibility--verified by the arrival in Congress
of new majority leaders and new committee chairs; verified yet again
by the weak GOP sidestep, early on, of any Senate debate on Iraq and,
not least, through the investigative horizons richly confirmed by the
perjury trial of Scooter Libby. Apart from this, in climes far from
comfortable lobbyists, activists have organized petitions for local
environmental laws even as people in midsize towns stepped up pressure
for living-wage ordinances as benchmarks for all city workers. Indeed,
agitation for a revived push for an Equal Rights Amendment, visible at
local levels soon after the November election and at state levels in
December, has now gathered momentum in both the House and Senate. This
kind of politics is not about the next election; it is about people
coming up for air and getting something done that has a chance to get
done. Nor is this effort a magic bullet to dispatch globalization. It
is not instant and it does not begin large-scale but emerges from the
interaction of popular aspirations and cooperating elites. It is out
there in America now--much more vividly than before the November
elections. It will be expanding.

There are stages here, reciprocal sequences. Unfamiliar rhythms are
apparent in the attentive but very reserved popular responses to the
bevy of presidential aspirants. Popular input is also visible on the
ground in Iraq, on the floor of the House of Representatives and in
the interplay of the two. It is no accident that the first
officeholder to speak publicly about the resentment American troops in
Iraq feel toward the crowds of contractors harvesting profit from the
war is Pennsylvania Representative John Murtha. A savvy old hand from
a working-class region hurt by globalization, Murtha does not fit the
liberal-conservative mold that frames Beltway insiderism. An
ex-Marine, Murtha saw for himself the conjunction of soldier
competence and discontent on his most recent trip to Baghdad. His
Democratic colleagues in the House will follow his lead in finding an
expeditious way out of Iraq--as they began to do soon after he first
publicly announced his opposition to Bush's policy. Like Murtha, the
boots on the ground in Iraq are responding to the reality they see
around them. What soldiers are telling the latest visitors reveals how
desperate things are. Talking to a reporter for the McClatchy
newspapers, a 19-year-old private explains, "We can go get into a
firefight and empty our ammo, but it doesn't accomplish much. This
isn't our war--we're just in the middle." An officer's take: "To be
honest, it's going to be like this for a long time to come, no matter
what we do."

The Iraq disaster undermines the Republicans but will not in itself
bring party realignment. Rather, the energizing momentum is
economic--and it is driven by abiding public anxiety here in America.
Ahead in Washington are the sharpest kinds of party divisions over
domestic policy. The signals are everywhere. The new Speaker of the
House, Nancy Pelosi, began by mobilizing all 233 Democrats to
co-sponsor the minimum-wage bill. On their first opportunity to
decamp, eighty-two Republicans did so. The final tally--an early
harbinger of the realigned future--was 315 to 116. After redistricting
in response to the 2010 census, it does not seem out of line to
envision something approaching a Democratic margin of 275 to 160. The
path to these numbers travels through Social Security, the issue that,
as Bush has already experienced, remains the third rail of American
politics. Debate before the 2008 election should produce the first of
many win-win options for the Democrats: Either enough GOP senators
defect to protect themselves as well as Social Security, or they don't
defect and boost their own vulnerability at the polls. Of forty-nine
GOP-held Senate seats, twenty-one are up for grabs.

Beyond Social Security lies a decisive second issue: healthcare. A
tangible start has already begun with the bill to end one of the
greatest boondoggles in legislative history--the GOP ban on the
government's right to negotiate prices with drug companies. It passed
the House 255 to 170. With the drug lobby weighing in, Democratic
partisans were pleased to see that all the no votes were cast by
Republicans. More suggestive is the fact that a score of others broke
ranks to support the Democrats--a move that reflects less an
alteration of ideology than anxiety about surviving 2008. This will be
a dicey time because by then Americans will know how much of their own
family budgets and the nation's Treasury the Republican Party has
brazenly transferred to pharmaceutical firms. Already put away in the
House bank is the most important labor bill in a generation: the
Employee Free Choice Act, designed to end the corporate reign of
threats and job firings routinely visited upon all those trying to get
a union at their workplace. The bill passed 241 to 185.

Meanwhile, the government has essentially been outsourced to corporate
America. In a convenient bit of tidiness, most auditing tasks have
been outsourced as well. Hired contractors guard the US Treasury by
casting glances over ledgers provided by other contractors. This way
of running the country carries arrogance to public levels never before
seen. Meanwhile, the Libby verdict ground into the national psyche the
entire structure of "lying America into war"--a venture that changed
the way the world feels about Americans as a people. What more will
surface by, say, June 2008? By November? Much fuel for realignment
lurks here.

A comparative framework for the impending Democratic sweep can be
found in the time in American history that most vividly corresponds to
the present--a moment that materialized right after another Democratic
breakthrough, seventy-seven years ago.

The time is 1930. Democrats have just found themselves in control of
the House under conditions they did not create and could not have
imagined even two years earlier. They have essentially been bystanders
at the instant of their ascendancy. The decisive political fact is
that something fundamental has gone terribly awry. The disaster has
come upon the nation with great speed, the consequences have gotten
more severe with every passing day and the President is doing nothing
in response. Instead he makes pious speeches that depress people
because they do not address reality. A testy minority has long seen
him as a complacent man nursing a penchant for pomposity. To them, his
posture comes across as disdain for the suffering of millions, not to
mention the mounting anxiety of almost everybody else. He has begun to
be hated by many people and is no longer trusted by most. The disaster
that generates all this is called the Great Depression. The President
who does not act but speaks in slogans is named Herbert Hoover. Though
the Civil War had conferred great prestige on the Republican Party,
suddenly, after many decades, grave peril looms.

The relationship between then and now is compelling. Every time Hoover
extolled the curative powers of the free market, every time he wrapped
himself in the red, white and blue of American prosperity, he verified
the emptiness of his leadership. The American people had to endure a
one-two punch: a self-undermining President, leaking support while
trying to defend his immobility, and a docile party confined by its
dazed need to be loyal to him. It took a while to play out publicly,
but eventually the rhythm of an immobilized President and a party of
straight men brought home to the population the depth of the trap they
were in. But right after their breakthrough, Democrats could not by
themselves drive home to a needy electorate the initiatives many hoped
to enact. They did not yet have the aid of a cooperating President.
Just as Iraq undermines George Bush in 2007, Hoover's inability to
deal with reality in 1931 and '32 was seen by voters for what it was:
clear failure. The result in 1932 made the breakthrough in 1930 seem
petty. The House became Democratic, 310 to 117; and the Senate, 60 to
35.

Nevertheless, these numbers did not mean what they seemed--a landslide
victory that ushered in the New Deal that followed. Herbert Hoover was
out and Franklin Roosevelt was in, yet what "followed" for three more
years was neither Social Security nor the Wagner Act but rather
intense struggles at workplaces across the country. Striking for union
recognition, workers mounted almost 4,000 job actions in 1933 and '34,
most visibly a failed general strike of 200,000 that spread through
Southern textile country and a second, more successful general strike
on the San Francisco waterfront. Support for collective bargaining was
strong in both Houses of Congress, but FDR, focused as he was on
agriculture, blocked it. Finally, in the summer of 1935, after one of
the anchors of New Deal legislation, the National Industrial Recovery
Act, was declared unconstitutional, the Senate overwhelmingly passed
the Wagner Act, 63 to 12. FDR finally got on board just before the
bill soared through the House and became law--along with Social
Security.

The GOP response to all this remained grounded in the belief that the
New Deal was destructive and socialist. The party's most vivid voice
was a redbaiting, occasionally anti-Semitic lobby calling itself the
Liberty League. But in the same way that the evening news from Iraq
mocks the rigidity of Bush talk today, such hysteria about socialism
could not substitute for reality in 1933 and '34 any more than Hoover
talk could in 1931 and '32. Never at any point in the 1930s did the
GOP develop a rhetorical match for Roosevelt. His fireside chats on
nationwide radio became the most dramatic and effective connection
between the American people and their President ever forged, before or
since. "Taxes shall be levied according to the ability to pay," he
said. "That is the only American principle." He effectively ridiculed
the Republican Party as the home to "economic royalists" who, despite
having "two perfectly good legs...never learned to walk forward."

For generations still to come, American historians will doubtless be
comparing the period 1930-36 to that of 2006-12 as years of high
political-economic crisis for capitalism. One crisis stemmed from a
worldwide depression, triggered by the American depression of 1929,
the other by an ambitious scheme of globalization benefiting the
financial sectors of every country in the world advanced enough to
have a financial sector. It also severely harmed workers in all the
advanced democracies, placing their labor movements under unbearable
pressure--and none more so than in America. The most important
achievement of the Democratic Party in the earlier period rested on
the vital educational function it served on an absolutely essential
subject: the role of demand in facilitating a healthy economy. Though
later scholars would label the Wagner Act "labor's Magna Carta," it
was, in fact, the nation's economy that was set temporarily on the
path to liberation--even if it took another decade or so for some of
the nation's classical economists to begin to consider that the
long-term welfare of the economy and the growth of organized labor
were essentially linked.

In the wake of the realignment of 1932, Congressional Democrats found
themselves on this issue, the analysis of demand, hemmed in at square
one--not only with journalists and other opinion-makers but with their
own President. Both FDR and Congress could share in the achievement of
Social Security. But the Wagner Act belonged to Congress alone--and to
the American people who backed their representatives. Today, with the
Wagner Act long since gutted, globalization is well along the path of
rotting the fabric of the economy from below.

It will take a sensible and dedicated President and a sensible and
strong Congress to set a more democratic course for the realigned
politics that is coming. But the table has been set for both.
Relentless Congressional inquiries have begun--and are
unstoppable--because the initial target is a regime whose capacity for
sustained deceit and wholesale incompetence has reached a broad
plateau of ethical corruption that is without precedent in American
history. Bush lied the country into a foreign quagmire that destroyed
the goodwill toward the country of populations residing on every
continent. He politicized and humiliated his own Justice Department,
falsely accusing honorable men and women of incompetence. To protect
his closest adviser, he betrayed lesser advisers, weakening the
country's rule of law.In power-grabbing acts of centralization,
through the grossly mistitled Patriot Act, he has repeatedly shown
contempt for the Bill of Rights. Through acts that were legal but
grotesquely undemocratic in philosophy, he destroyed the structure of
the balanced budget he inherited, undermining long-term demand and
hastening the economic downturn that has begun. He has proved his
indifference to the fate of one of America's great cities because of
his indifference to most of the people who lived in it. He has
degraded the nation. Though our plate of dismay and despair is full,
we have more to learn, and Congress, with Karl Rove's blood
everywhere, will see that we learn it.

The citizenry as a whole has been pushed far back by the
authoritarianism of the Bush/Cheney team and the greed it has
inspired, particularly in finance and corporate medicine. The country,
including the media at large, has a distance to travel to get up to
speed for the revelations to come.

Finally, though American life in 2007 does not resemble the numbing
degradation of the Depression years, something else is eating its way
through the fabric of the commonwealth--a reality we don't yet possess
the political language to describe with poise. Woven deeply into the
shared experience of Americans is a sense of people actually "getting
somewhere," of being able through hard work to "move up in the world"
and, when disaster occurs, to get a second job to hold family
catastrophe at bay. Over time, generations of parents have passed on a
belief in the nation's democratic experiment, a concept at once
American and biblical--originally set down with romantic
seventeenth-century flair as "a city upon a hill." It accounts for the
peculiarly American sense of the possibility of dignity for everyone.
It is this very sense of what we should be as a people that stokes
modern anxiety, activated as it now is by downsizings across the
country. Initially surfacing privately, inside families, it is now a
part of life, a social blemish that has turned into a hardened scar as
highly skilled mechanics in dozens of occupations become unemployed
and women have no option but to become family breadwinners. These
anomalies are driven by the very industrial facts people once believed
they had under control. At a time when the value of the minimum wage
has sunk by 20 percent in a single decade, the enormous leap in wealth
by the top 1 percent fails to console the rest of us. We all have
proof there is (currently) no promise of a city on a hill. In 2007,
the quality most visible at the top of the hill is greed.

This sober reality explains why Americans are giving themselves
permission, once again, to think broadly about democratic possibility.
Though most people work for businesses, they have learned to be
skeptical when the boss tells them what is good for the nation. The
suffocating consistency of the Bush Administration's lies has expanded
this skepticism exponentially. But in a corporate culture where
conservative arrogance has been rubbed in people's faces at work and
in politics, it takes a while for citizens to allow themselves to
stand up.

To assist them, a measure of Democratic Party clarity would be very
helpful. Since GOP incumbents cannot campaign effectively in 2008 by
dealing seriously with issues that now bear down on the American
people, much of Republican electioneering will consist of TV attacks
on the character of their opponents. Democratic defenses will depend
on the power of the agenda they have advanced. In 2004 the many-sided
John Kerry was Swift-Boated into history's dustbin, while two years
later in Tennessee, there appeared a Democratic candidate who managed
to take the lead in a tight Senate race. He was a nice fellow, though
prone to straddling issues of substance. Indeed, it is not too much to
say that the bigger the issue, the wider his straddle. Detecting
opportunity, GOP consultants served up a casually dressed Caucasian
lass who, in a racist TV ad, coyly used the Democratic candidate's
first name--as if to court him and degrade him all at once. The GOP
aspirant, a man of modest talent, managed to pull out a narrow win in
a Democratic year. When Democrats learn how to be clear on central
issues, this kind of ignoble foolishness will no longer succeed. Party
realignment will then happen and the country can start to work on its
very real problems.

And not until then.



We seek him here, we seek him there, Those Frenchies seek him everywhere. Is
he in heaven? - Is he in hell? That damned, elusive Pimpernel?




First they ignore you, then they laugh at you,
then they fight you, then you win. Mohandas Gandhi
"Buck" @Cowtown.net>
2007-04-17 09:56:41 UTC
Permalink
KUMBAYA, My Lord, Kumbayaaaaaaaaaa....

Oh! Lord, KUMBAYAAAAA!!!

KUMBAY...PLONK!!!
Post by Alistair Sim
Post by Rudy Canoza
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
How do you pump more than 100% humidity into the air? Water vapor is a
limited component of the atmosphere. Carbon gasses are unlimited; they do
not precipitate out.
Show me an energy balance that accounts for (a) solar radiation, (b)
blackbody radiation from the earth's surface (c) the
absorption/reflection/transmission of [snip remaining PLAGIARISM by Stain]
You are not a climate scientist, and you merely
copied-and-pasted all that bullshit.
The FACT, stain, is that an *OVERWHELMING* majority of
a) global warming is occurring
b) humans are causing it
You are INCOMPETENT to refute their conclusions,
because you have no expertise in the field; none
whatever. I have none in the field as well, but as an
intelligent and unbiased lay person, I am able to
recognize that those who do overwhelmingly agree with
the conclusions above, which is what makes it THE
consensus.
You need to learn to stop being a flunky for highly
partisan political groups.
Your a big talker. Isn't it easy to sit behind your PC and bellow out
expletives to people you do not know or know you. I am willing to
wager that you are a fat slob of a pussy that could not beat your way
out of a wet paper bag. The only exercise you do is run your big foul
mouth and move your fingers across a keyboard. I am positive that
since you are a squeamish wimp, and too chickenshit like a typical
fascist to participate in an actual battle, you prefer to disambiguate
comical right wing tripe based entirely on your hidebound opinions
about liberalism . Soon the word conservative will have a negative
coloring as the word liberal, because the left allowed the right to
define them without going on the offensive and defining the right in
counter point. I feel that your entire diatribe against liberals is
nothing but a reaction to the progress minorities have made in terms
of education and prosperity. I sense a certain amount of jealousy and
envy on your part because you are a loser.
The Coming Party Realignment
by LAWRENCE GOODWYN
[from the April 30, 2007 issue]
Intransigence and myopia. The flowering of these habits within the GOP
is driving the Democratic Party to clarity. And the potential for
serious consequences is real. It is not enough to suggest that a big
Democratic win is possible in 2008. Something far more strategic is at
work: large-scale party realignment with historic implications.
None of this seems apparent, of course. Indeed, for a number of
hopeful partisans, such a possibility seems beyond reason itself.
Politics is assumed to be modulated through the inherited customs of
the two major parties. Complacency and sloganeering are settled habits
among Republicans. Clarity, on the other hand, can scarcely be called
an ingrained cultural habit among Democrats. In the face of corporate
saber-rattling, a fair degree of communal Democratic wilting is highly
probable. This traditional analysis, while time-tested and even
accurate as far as it goes, is leading to inside-the-Beltway
conclusions that are superficial and obsolete.
Actually, very strong countervailing pressures are at work. But
Americans are no longer well instructed about how to see them. Real
life contains two elements of democratic politics that are rarely
discussed in tandem--engaged popular aspiration (unidentified people
out there in America) and cooperating elites (identifiable in
Washington). Such a range of citizens is not routinely analyzed
together because, politically, they are not assumed to be together.
Instead, people find the nominal institutions of democracy, such as
the US Congress, limping along in a decayed condition, insufficiently
independent of lobbyists. The outlying population is also found
limping, assumed to be insufficiently informed to act with relevance.
Since everyone is affected by the surrounding culture in which they
have been raised and to which they remain attached, the same decayed
condition besets the reporters who cover it, the scholars who brood
over it, the consultants who try to make a living handling it and the
politicians who seek passable footing through it. To find some footing
for ourselves, we need to catch the connections on those rare
occasions when popular and elite modes of politics function at the
same time and have serious ideas in concert. It does not happen often
in history. But it happens. When it does, expectation can begin to
replace resignation.
It is, in fact, beginning to happen now. Activity among people "out
there" surfaced soon after the 2006 elections, first as a new way to
think about political possibility--verified by the arrival in Congress
of new majority leaders and new committee chairs; verified yet again
by the weak GOP sidestep, early on, of any Senate debate on Iraq and,
not least, through the investigative horizons richly confirmed by the
perjury trial of Scooter Libby. Apart from this, in climes far from
comfortable lobbyists, activists have organized petitions for local
environmental laws even as people in midsize towns stepped up pressure
for living-wage ordinances as benchmarks for all city workers. Indeed,
agitation for a revived push for an Equal Rights Amendment, visible at
local levels soon after the November election and at state levels in
December, has now gathered momentum in both the House and Senate. This
kind of politics is not about the next election; it is about people
coming up for air and getting something done that has a chance to get
done. Nor is this effort a magic bullet to dispatch globalization. It
is not instant and it does not begin large-scale but emerges from the
interaction of popular aspirations and cooperating elites. It is out
there in America now--much more vividly than before the November
elections. It will be expanding.
There are stages here, reciprocal sequences. Unfamiliar rhythms are
apparent in the attentive but very reserved popular responses to the
bevy of presidential aspirants. Popular input is also visible on the
ground in Iraq, on the floor of the House of Representatives and in
the interplay of the two. It is no accident that the first
officeholder to speak publicly about the resentment American troops in
Iraq feel toward the crowds of contractors harvesting profit from the
war is Pennsylvania Representative John Murtha. A savvy old hand from
a working-class region hurt by globalization, Murtha does not fit the
liberal-conservative mold that frames Beltway insiderism. An
ex-Marine, Murtha saw for himself the conjunction of soldier
competence and discontent on his most recent trip to Baghdad. His
Democratic colleagues in the House will follow his lead in finding an
expeditious way out of Iraq--as they began to do soon after he first
publicly announced his opposition to Bush's policy. Like Murtha, the
boots on the ground in Iraq are responding to the reality they see
around them. What soldiers are telling the latest visitors reveals how
desperate things are. Talking to a reporter for the McClatchy
newspapers, a 19-year-old private explains, "We can go get into a
firefight and empty our ammo, but it doesn't accomplish much. This
isn't our war--we're just in the middle." An officer's take: "To be
honest, it's going to be like this for a long time to come, no matter
what we do."
The Iraq disaster undermines the Republicans but will not in itself
bring party realignment. Rather, the energizing momentum is
economic--and it is driven by abiding public anxiety here in America.
Ahead in Washington are the sharpest kinds of party divisions over
domestic policy. The signals are everywhere. The new Speaker of the
House, Nancy Pelosi, began by mobilizing all 233 Democrats to
co-sponsor the minimum-wage bill. On their first opportunity to
decamp, eighty-two Republicans did so. The final tally--an early
harbinger of the realigned future--was 315 to 116. After redistricting
in response to the 2010 census, it does not seem out of line to
envision something approaching a Democratic margin of 275 to 160. The
path to these numbers travels through Social Security, the issue that,
as Bush has already experienced, remains the third rail of American
politics. Debate before the 2008 election should produce the first of
many win-win options for the Democrats: Either enough GOP senators
defect to protect themselves as well as Social Security, or they don't
defect and boost their own vulnerability at the polls. Of forty-nine
GOP-held Senate seats, twenty-one are up for grabs.
Beyond Social Security lies a decisive second issue: healthcare. A
tangible start has already begun with the bill to end one of the
greatest boondoggles in legislative history--the GOP ban on the
government's right to negotiate prices with drug companies. It passed
the House 255 to 170. With the drug lobby weighing in, Democratic
partisans were pleased to see that all the no votes were cast by
Republicans. More suggestive is the fact that a score of others broke
ranks to support the Democrats--a move that reflects less an
alteration of ideology than anxiety about surviving 2008. This will be
a dicey time because by then Americans will know how much of their own
family budgets and the nation's Treasury the Republican Party has
brazenly transferred to pharmaceutical firms. Already put away in the
House bank is the most important labor bill in a generation: the
Employee Free Choice Act, designed to end the corporate reign of
threats and job firings routinely visited upon all those trying to get
a union at their workplace. The bill passed 241 to 185.
Meanwhile, the government has essentially been outsourced to corporate
America. In a convenient bit of tidiness, most auditing tasks have
been outsourced as well. Hired contractors guard the US Treasury by
casting glances over ledgers provided by other contractors. This way
of running the country carries arrogance to public levels never before
seen. Meanwhile, the Libby verdict ground into the national psyche the
entire structure of "lying America into war"--a venture that changed
the way the world feels about Americans as a people. What more will
surface by, say, June 2008? By November? Much fuel for realignment
lurks here.
A comparative framework for the impending Democratic sweep can be
found in the time in American history that most vividly corresponds to
the present--a moment that materialized right after another Democratic
breakthrough, seventy-seven years ago.
The time is 1930. Democrats have just found themselves in control of
the House under conditions they did not create and could not have
imagined even two years earlier. They have essentially been bystanders
at the instant of their ascendancy. The decisive political fact is
that something fundamental has gone terribly awry. The disaster has
come upon the nation with great speed, the consequences have gotten
more severe with every passing day and the President is doing nothing
in response. Instead he makes pious speeches that depress people
because they do not address reality. A testy minority has long seen
him as a complacent man nursing a penchant for pomposity. To them, his
posture comes across as disdain for the suffering of millions, not to
mention the mounting anxiety of almost everybody else. He has begun to
be hated by many people and is no longer trusted by most. The disaster
that generates all this is called the Great Depression. The President
who does not act but speaks in slogans is named Herbert Hoover. Though
the Civil War had conferred great prestige on the Republican Party,
suddenly, after many decades, grave peril looms.
The relationship between then and now is compelling. Every time Hoover
extolled the curative powers of the free market, every time he wrapped
himself in the red, white and blue of American prosperity, he verified
the emptiness of his leadership. The American people had to endure a
one-two punch: a self-undermining President, leaking support while
trying to defend his immobility, and a docile party confined by its
dazed need to be loyal to him. It took a while to play out publicly,
but eventually the rhythm of an immobilized President and a party of
straight men brought home to the population the depth of the trap they
were in. But right after their breakthrough, Democrats could not by
themselves drive home to a needy electorate the initiatives many hoped
to enact. They did not yet have the aid of a cooperating President.
Just as Iraq undermines George Bush in 2007, Hoover's inability to
clear failure. The result in 1932 made the breakthrough in 1930 seem
petty. The House became Democratic, 310 to 117; and the Senate, 60 to
35.
Nevertheless, these numbers did not mean what they seemed--a landslide
victory that ushered in the New Deal that followed. Herbert Hoover was
out and Franklin Roosevelt was in, yet what "followed" for three more
years was neither Social Security nor the Wagner Act but rather
intense struggles at workplaces across the country. Striking for union
recognition, workers mounted almost 4,000 job actions in 1933 and '34,
most visibly a failed general strike of 200,000 that spread through
Southern textile country and a second, more successful general strike
on the San Francisco waterfront. Support for collective bargaining was
strong in both Houses of Congress, but FDR, focused as he was on
agriculture, blocked it. Finally, in the summer of 1935, after one of
the anchors of New Deal legislation, the National Industrial Recovery
Act, was declared unconstitutional, the Senate overwhelmingly passed
the Wagner Act, 63 to 12. FDR finally got on board just before the
bill soared through the House and became law--along with Social
Security.
The GOP response to all this remained grounded in the belief that the
New Deal was destructive and socialist. The party's most vivid voice
was a redbaiting, occasionally anti-Semitic lobby calling itself the
Liberty League. But in the same way that the evening news from Iraq
mocks the rigidity of Bush talk today, such hysteria about socialism
could not substitute for reality in 1933 and '34 any more than Hoover
talk could in 1931 and '32. Never at any point in the 1930s did the
GOP develop a rhetorical match for Roosevelt. His fireside chats on
nationwide radio became the most dramatic and effective connection
between the American people and their President ever forged, before or
since. "Taxes shall be levied according to the ability to pay," he
said. "That is the only American principle." He effectively ridiculed
the Republican Party as the home to "economic royalists" who, despite
having "two perfectly good legs...never learned to walk forward."
For generations still to come, American historians will doubtless be
comparing the period 1930-36 to that of 2006-12 as years of high
political-economic crisis for capitalism. One crisis stemmed from a
worldwide depression, triggered by the American depression of 1929,
the other by an ambitious scheme of globalization benefiting the
financial sectors of every country in the world advanced enough to
have a financial sector. It also severely harmed workers in all the
advanced democracies, placing their labor movements under unbearable
pressure--and none more so than in America. The most important
achievement of the Democratic Party in the earlier period rested on
the vital educational function it served on an absolutely essential
subject: the role of demand in facilitating a healthy economy. Though
later scholars would label the Wagner Act "labor's Magna Carta," it
was, in fact, the nation's economy that was set temporarily on the
path to liberation--even if it took another decade or so for some of
the nation's classical economists to begin to consider that the
long-term welfare of the economy and the growth of organized labor
were essentially linked.
In the wake of the realignment of 1932, Congressional Democrats found
themselves on this issue, the analysis of demand, hemmed in at square
one--not only with journalists and other opinion-makers but with their
own President. Both FDR and Congress could share in the achievement of
Social Security. But the Wagner Act belonged to Congress alone--and to
the American people who backed their representatives. Today, with the
Wagner Act long since gutted, globalization is well along the path of
rotting the fabric of the economy from below.
It will take a sensible and dedicated President and a sensible and
strong Congress to set a more democratic course for the realigned
politics that is coming. But the table has been set for both.
Relentless Congressional inquiries have begun--and are
unstoppable--because the initial target is a regime whose capacity for
sustained deceit and wholesale incompetence has reached a broad
plateau of ethical corruption that is without precedent in American
history. Bush lied the country into a foreign quagmire that destroyed
the goodwill toward the country of populations residing on every
continent. He politicized and humiliated his own Justice Department,
falsely accusing honorable men and women of incompetence. To protect
his closest adviser, he betrayed lesser advisers, weakening the
country's rule of law.In power-grabbing acts of centralization,
through the grossly mistitled Patriot Act, he has repeatedly shown
contempt for the Bill of Rights. Through acts that were legal but
grotesquely undemocratic in philosophy, he destroyed the structure of
the balanced budget he inherited, undermining long-term demand and
hastening the economic downturn that has begun. He has proved his
indifference to the fate of one of America's great cities because of
his indifference to most of the people who lived in it. He has
degraded the nation. Though our plate of dismay and despair is full,
we have more to learn, and Congress, with Karl Rove's blood
everywhere, will see that we learn it.
The citizenry as a whole has been pushed far back by the
authoritarianism of the Bush/Cheney team and the greed it has
inspired, particularly in finance and corporate medicine. The country,
including the media at large, has a distance to travel to get up to
speed for the revelations to come.
Finally, though American life in 2007 does not resemble the numbing
degradation of the Depression years, something else is eating its way
through the fabric of the commonwealth--a reality we don't yet possess
the political language to describe with poise. Woven deeply into the
shared experience of Americans is a sense of people actually "getting
somewhere," of being able through hard work to "move up in the world"
and, when disaster occurs, to get a second job to hold family
catastrophe at bay. Over time, generations of parents have passed on a
belief in the nation's democratic experiment, a concept at once
American and biblical--originally set down with romantic
seventeenth-century flair as "a city upon a hill." It accounts for the
peculiarly American sense of the possibility of dignity for everyone.
It is this very sense of what we should be as a people that stokes
modern anxiety, activated as it now is by downsizings across the
country. Initially surfacing privately, inside families, it is now a
part of life, a social blemish that has turned into a hardened scar as
highly skilled mechanics in dozens of occupations become unemployed
and women have no option but to become family breadwinners. These
anomalies are driven by the very industrial facts people once believed
they had under control. At a time when the value of the minimum wage
has sunk by 20 percent in a single decade, the enormous leap in wealth
by the top 1 percent fails to console the rest of us. We all have
proof there is (currently) no promise of a city on a hill. In 2007,
the quality most visible at the top of the hill is greed.
This sober reality explains why Americans are giving themselves
permission, once again, to think broadly about democratic possibility.
Though most people work for businesses, they have learned to be
skeptical when the boss tells them what is good for the nation. The
suffocating consistency of the Bush Administration's lies has expanded
this skepticism exponentially. But in a corporate culture where
conservative arrogance has been rubbed in people's faces at work and
in politics, it takes a while for citizens to allow themselves to
stand up.
To assist them, a measure of Democratic Party clarity would be very
helpful. Since GOP incumbents cannot campaign effectively in 2008 by
dealing seriously with issues that now bear down on the American
people, much of Republican electioneering will consist of TV attacks
on the character of their opponents. Democratic defenses will depend
on the power of the agenda they have advanced. In 2004 the many-sided
John Kerry was Swift-Boated into history's dustbin, while two years
later in Tennessee, there appeared a Democratic candidate who managed
to take the lead in a tight Senate race. He was a nice fellow, though
prone to straddling issues of substance. Indeed, it is not too much to
say that the bigger the issue, the wider his straddle. Detecting
opportunity, GOP consultants served up a casually dressed Caucasian
lass who, in a racist TV ad, coyly used the Democratic candidate's
first name--as if to court him and degrade him all at once. The GOP
aspirant, a man of modest talent, managed to pull out a narrow win in
a Democratic year. When Democrats learn how to be clear on central
issues, this kind of ignoble foolishness will no longer succeed. Party
realignment will then happen and the country can start to work on its
very real problems.
And not until then.
We seek him here, we seek him there, Those Frenchies seek him everywhere. Is
he in heaven? - Is he in hell? That damned, elusive Pimpernel?
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you,
then they fight you, then you win. Mohandas Gandhi
Steven
2007-04-17 12:08:58 UTC
Permalink
Can I have your S'mores, Buck?

Bill Habr
2007-02-18 19:38:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Post by Stan de SD
(1) CO2 is NOT the primary greehouse gas.
How do you pump more than 100% humidity into the air?
100% RELATIVE humidity is relative to equilibrium above a flat surface of
pure water.
H2O is condensing and evaporating all the time in the atmosphere. At the
point when condensation and evaporation are equal is 100% relative humidity.
This equilibrium depends on temperature and pressure.Becasue of the presence
of condensation nuclei the relative humidity rarely exceeds 100% close to
the earth surface and rarely excceds 102% in clouds.

Air is a mixture of gases with relatively large distances between molecules,
because of this air can have much more water vapor in it.
Post by Disgruntled Customer
Water vapor is a limited component of the atmosphere. Carbon gasses are
unlimited; they do not precipitate out.
Jack May
2007-02-18 05:17:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
Funny how you frame the issue in terms of your personal opinions of people
you disagree with, instead of dealing with facts. You're probably one of the
"community college morons" Dr. Bill is talking about... :O|
The problem is that a lot of the people on these newsgroups can not find
facts that support their view on transit for example.

Since they can not accept that what they think is true is actually false,
they have to believe that there is some conspiracy that is hiding the facts
that would prove that they are right.
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