Discussion:
Vehicle mile tax (VMT)
(too old to reply)
kujebak
2009-02-21 00:17:04 UTC
Permalink
What would happen if everyone traded in his old jalopy
for a brand new Prius? Well, for one thing, the government
(federal and state) gasoline tax revenues would suffer.
Significantly. But, as always, there is a solution:

http://tinyurl.com/ckhdrj

Which still brings an intriguing thought - how else can the mo-
torist be use taxed when chemical fuels are totally eliminated
from all forms of personal transport, by a truly significant break-
through in electric storage technology?
Bill Z.
2009-02-21 00:42:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by kujebak
What would happen if everyone traded in his old jalopy
for a brand new Prius? Well, for one thing, the government
(federal and state) gasoline tax revenues would suffer.
If the "old jalopy" is heavier, wear and tear on the roads
would go down - the impact grows rapidly with weight.

<http://www.tc.gc.ca/pol/en/Report/FullCostInvestigation/Road/tp14481/tp14481.pdf>:

Road tests conducted by the American State Highway
Officials (AASHO) in the 1950s provided ESAL values for
both flexible and rigid pavements. The AASHO found that
the road damage on both types of pavements is related to
the fourth power of the axle load and this has been the
rule of thumb for many years.

So, you'd collect less in taxes, but you'd save money on road
repairs.
m***@tadyatam.invalid
2009-02-21 01:36:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Post by kujebak
What would happen if everyone traded in his old jalopy
for a brand new Prius? Well, for one thing, the government
(federal and state) gasoline tax revenues would suffer.
If the "old jalopy" is heavier, wear and tear on the roads
would go down - the impact grows rapidly with weight.
<http://www.tc.gc.ca/pol/en/Report/FullCostInvestigation/Roa
Road tests conducted by the American State
Highway Officials (AASHO) in the 1950s provided
ESAL values for both flexible and rigid
pavements. The AASHO found that the road damage
on both types of pavements is related to
the fourth power of the axle load and this has
been the rule of thumb for many years.
So, you'd collect less in taxes, but you'd save money on
road repairs.
[ sarcasm ]
Ah, but we would save far more by banning tractor-trailers!
Let's bring back the choo-choo trains!
[ /sarcasm ]

J
--
Replies to: Nherr1professor2doktor31109(at)Oyahoo(dot)Tcom
Bill Z.
2009-02-21 02:01:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@tadyatam.invalid
Post by Bill Z.
Post by kujebak
What would happen if everyone traded in his old jalopy
for a brand new Prius? Well, for one thing, the government
(federal and state) gasoline tax revenues would suffer.
If the "old jalopy" is heavier, wear and tear on the roads
would go down - the impact grows rapidly with weight.
<http://www.tc.gc.ca/pol/en/Report/FullCostInvestigation/Roa
Road tests conducted by the American State
Highway Officials (AASHO) in the 1950s provided
ESAL values for both flexible and rigid
pavements. The AASHO found that the road damage
on both types of pavements is related to
the fourth power of the axle load and this has
been the rule of thumb for many years.
So, you'd collect less in taxes, but you'd save money on
road repairs.
[ sarcasm ]
Ah, but we would save far more by banning tractor-trailers!
Let's bring back the choo-choo trains!
[ /sarcasm ]
Do you object to those stations along highways where trucks get
weighed? Regardless, you reaction convinces me that you are yet
another usenet fool.

The whole point was that there can be mitigating factors when people
get more fuel efficient vehicles. You are too stupid to realize it.
m***@tadyatam.invalid
2009-02-21 04:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Post by m***@tadyatam.invalid
Post by Bill Z.
Post by kujebak
What would happen if everyone traded in his old jalopy
for a brand new Prius? Well, for one thing, the
government (federal and state) gasoline tax revenues
would suffer. Significantly. But, as always, there is a
If the "old jalopy" is heavier, wear and tear on the
roads would go down - the impact grows rapidly with
weight.
<http://www.tc.gc.ca/pol/en/Report/FullCostInvestigation/R
Road tests conducted by the American State
Highway Officials (AASHO) in the 1950s
provided ESAL values for both flexible and
rigid pavements. The AASHO found that the
road damage on both types of pavements is
related to the fourth power of the axle load
and this has been the rule of thumb for many
years.
So, you'd collect less in taxes, but you'd save money on
road repairs.
[ sarcasm ]
Ah, but we would save far more by banning
tractor-trailers! Let's bring back the choo-choo trains!
[ /sarcasm ]
Do you object to those stations along highways where trucks
get weighed? Regardless, you reaction convinces me that
you are yet another usenet fool.
The whole point was that there can be mitigating factors
when people get more fuel efficient vehicles. You are too
stupid to realize it.
Ah, ad hominem response -- how brilliant!

I shall contemplate it with all attention it deserves.

J
--
Replies to: Nherr1professor2doktor31109(at)Oyahoo(dot)Tcom
Bill Z.
2009-02-21 07:46:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@tadyatam.invalid
Post by Bill Z.
Post by m***@tadyatam.invalid
Post by Bill Z.
Post by kujebak
What would happen if everyone traded in his old jalopy
for a brand new Prius? Well, for one thing, the
government (federal and state) gasoline tax revenues
would suffer. Significantly. But, as always, there is a
If the "old jalopy" is heavier, wear and tear on the
roads would go down - the impact grows rapidly with
weight.
<http://www.tc.gc.ca/pol/en/Report/FullCostInvestigation/R
Road tests conducted by the American State
Highway Officials (AASHO) in the 1950s
provided ESAL values for both flexible and
rigid pavements. The AASHO found that the
road damage on both types of pavements is
related to the fourth power of the axle load
and this has been the rule of thumb for many
years.
So, you'd collect less in taxes, but you'd save money on
road repairs.
[ sarcasm ]
Ah, but we would save far more by banning
tractor-trailers! Let's bring back the choo-choo trains!
[ /sarcasm ]
Do you object to those stations along highways where trucks
get weighed? Regardless, you reaction convinces me that
you are yet another usenet fool.
The whole point was that there can be mitigating factors
when people get more fuel efficient vehicles. You are too
stupid to realize it.
Ah, ad hominem response -- how brilliant!
I shall contemplate it with all attention it deserves.
A "[ sarcasm ]" response to a quote of AASHO results is
obviously stupid and calling it stupid is not an ad hominem
response but a statement of fact: the guy *is* stupid.
kujebak
2009-02-21 01:51:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Post by kujebak
What would happen if everyone traded in his old jalopy
for a brand new Prius? Well, for one thing, the government
(federal and state) gasoline tax revenues would suffer.
If the "old jalopy" is heavier, wear and tear on the roads
would go down - the impact grows rapidly with weight.
            Road tests conducted by the American State Highway
            Officials (AASHO) in the 1950s provided ESAL values for
            both flexible and rigid pavements. The AASHO found that
            the road damage on both types of pavements is related to
            the fourth power of the axle load and this has been the
            rule of thumb for many years.
So, you'd collect less in taxes, but you'd save money on road
repairs.
Most road damage is caused by fully loaded 40 ton commercial
vehicles, not passenger cars. I would assume that commercial
trucking is not going to go away in the future. Anyway, my question
deals with tax revenue, not just the cost of road maintenance.
Currently, taxes levied on passenger vehicles are essential for the
maintainance of the infrastructure necessary for commercial ve-
hicles. The reason why no one objects to this inequity is that sub-
sidizing commercial traffic at the pump is much less economically
regressive than subsidizing it at the grocery checkout counter.
Which brings me back to my question: If we are to continue fi-
nancing our transportation infrastructure on usage basis in the
future, should we consider including public transit, and its users
as well?
Bill Z.
2009-02-21 02:04:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by kujebak
Post by Bill Z.
Post by kujebak
What would happen if everyone traded in his old jalopy
for a brand new Prius? Well, for one thing, the government
(federal and state) gasoline tax revenues would suffer.
If the "old jalopy" is heavier, wear and tear on the roads
would go down - the impact grows rapidly with weight.
            Road tests conducted by the American State Highway
            Officials (AASHO) in the 1950s provided ESAL values for
            both flexible and rigid pavements. The AASHO found that
            the road damage on both types of pavements is related to
            the fourth power of the axle load and this has been the
            rule of thumb for many years.
So, you'd collect less in taxes, but you'd save money on road
repairs.
Most road damage is caused by fully loaded 40 ton commercial
vehicles, not passenger cars.
With the damage proportional to the fourth power of the axel load, why
am I not surprised. :-) The point was that the same rule applies to
passenger cars, so if your more fuel efficient vehicle is also lighter
(reduced weight improves fuel efficiency in urban conditions), then
the reduction in gas taxes is mitigated by the favorable change in
weight.
Orval Fairbairn
2009-02-22 04:47:53 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by kujebak
What would happen if everyone traded in his old jalopy
for a brand new Prius? Well, for one thing, the government
(federal and state) gasoline tax revenues would suffer.
http://tinyurl.com/ckhdrj
Which still brings an intriguing thought - how else can the mo-
torist be use taxed when chemical fuels are totally eliminated
from all forms of personal transport, by a truly significant break-
through in electric storage technology?
Not going to happen, since all batteries depend on well-known chemical
reactions to store and release energy.

Only when dilithium crystals, naqueda or some such product of science
fiction comes out will we get the quantum improvement in electric
storage (or generation) necessary to make electric cars practical.
--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.
Stan de SD
2009-03-12 06:02:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orval Fairbairn
Only when dilithium crystals, naqueda or some such product of science
fiction comes out will we get the quantum improvement in electric
storage (or generation) necessary to make electric cars practical.
I'm sure one or the other is in the liberal's playbook when the eco-
fruit-loops shoot down fossil fuel use for good... :O|
Bill Z.
2009-03-12 06:52:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Orval Fairbairn
Only when dilithium crystals, naqueda or some such product of science
fiction comes out will we get the quantum improvement in electric
storage (or generation) necessary to make electric cars practical.
I'm sure one or the other is in the liberal's playbook when the eco-
fruit-loops shoot down fossil fuel use for good... :O|
<http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2006/12/solar-cell-breaks-the-40-efficiency-barrier-46765>
<http://www.photonics.com/Content/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=26247>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090225223324.htm>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080222125628.htm>
<http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/34053/title/Solar_panels_to_dye_for>

... just for starters.
Frank Bures
2009-03-12 15:37:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Orval Fairbairn
Only when dilithium crystals, naqueda or some such product of science
fiction comes out will we get the quantum improvement in electric
storage (or generation) necessary to make electric cars practical.
I'm sure one or the other is in the liberal's playbook when the eco-
fruit-loops shoot down fossil fuel use for good... :O|
<http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2006/12/solar-cell-breaks-the-40-efficiency-barrier-46765>
"installed cost of $3 per Watt" (Yes Watt not watt as renewable...com thinks).
So an equivalent of a small coal-fired power plant (800MW) would cost some
$2.4 billion just for the solar cells. Plus all the infrastructure. And
it would produce electricity for the same price, but only when the weather
is right, during the day and when the elements are not covered with snow or
any other contaminants. I cannot even start to envision how much surface
space it would need. Nuts.
Post by Bill Z.
<http://www.photonics.com/Content/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=26247>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090225223324.htm>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080222125628.htm>
<http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/34053/title/Solar_panels_to_dye_for>
That's all very nice in the theory and inside a lab. Any mass-application
of solar power generation must overcome two major hurdles:
Installation and operational costs including space requirements.
Ability to store the energy when it is produced for later distribution.

It may seem incomprehensible to someone from LA-LA-land, but there are
areas that do not have 365 sunny days a year and where average temperature
dips below freezing point for considerable period of time, sometimes for
months. Unfortunately, Sun does not usually shine when that happens.

Cheers
Frank
--
<***@chem.toronto.edu>
Bill Z.
2009-03-12 17:38:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Orval Fairbairn
Only when dilithium crystals, naqueda or some such product of science
fiction comes out will we get the quantum improvement in electric
storage (or generation) necessary to make electric cars practical.
I'm sure one or the other is in the liberal's playbook when the eco-
fruit-loops shoot down fossil fuel use for good... :O|
<http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2006/12/solar-cell-breaks-the-40-efficiency-barrier-46765>
"installed cost of $3 per Watt" (Yes Watt not watt as renewable...com thinks).
So an equivalent of a small coal-fired power plant (800MW) would cost some
$2.4 billion just for the solar cells. Plus all the infrastructure. And
it would produce electricity for the same price, but only when the weather
is right, during the day and when the elements are not covered with snow or
any other contaminants. I cannot even start to envision how much surface
space it would need. Nuts.
No, not "nuts" - the whole point is that the cost for solar cells is
dropping rapidly per year. And you got the economics wrong as well,
as the cost for a coal-fired plant is not just the capital cost of the
plant, but that plus the cost of the coal (including transporting it).
Then you have to include maintanence and the lifetime of the facilities
(for both).
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
<http://www.photonics.com/Content/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=26247>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090225223324.htm>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080222125628.htm>
<http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/34053/title/Solar_panels_to_dye_for>
That's all very nice in the theory and inside a lab. Any mass-application
Installation and operational costs including space requirements.
Ability to store the energy when it is produced for later distribution.
Sigh. The key fact you should have gotten from all of the citations
above is that cost of solar power is dropping each year due to a variety
of technical improvements, with the end not yet in sight.
Post by Frank Bures
It may seem incomprehensible to someone from LA-LA-land, but there are
areas that do not have 365 sunny days a year and where average temperature
dips below freezing point for considerable period of time, sometimes for
months. Unfortunately, Sun does not usually shine when that happens.
You mean, we should not make use of the vast deserts in the U.S. in any
way, shape, or form?

Do you know that the peak electric load are correlated with bright sunny
days due to the need to run air conditioners?
kujebak
2009-03-12 19:17:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Orval Fairbairn
Only when dilithium crystals, naqueda or some such product of science
fiction comes out will we get the quantum improvement in electric
storage (or generation) necessary to make electric cars practical.
I'm sure one or the other is in the liberal's playbook when the eco-
fruit-loops shoot down fossil fuel use for good... :O|
<http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2006/12/solar-ce...>
"installed cost of $3 per Watt"  (Yes Watt not watt as renewable...com thinks).
So an equivalent of a small coal-fired power plant (800MW) would cost some
$2.4 billion just for the solar cells.  Plus all the infrastructure.  And
it would produce electricity for the same price, but only when the weather
is right, during the day and when the elements are not covered with snow or
any other contaminants.  I cannot even start to envision how much surface
space it would need.  Nuts.
No, not "nuts" - the whole point is that the cost for solar cells is
dropping rapidly per year.  And you got the economics wrong as well,
as the cost for a coal-fired plant is not just the capital cost of the
plant, but that plus the cost of the coal (including transporting it).
Then you have to include maintanence and the lifetime of the facilities
(for both).
<http://www.photonics.com/Content/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=26247>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090225223324.htm>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080222125628.htm>
<http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/34053/title/Solar_panels_t...>
That's all very nice in the theory and inside a lab.  Any mass-application
Installation and operational costs including space requirements.
Ability to store the energy when it is produced for later distribution.
Sigh.  The key fact you should have gotten from all of the citations
above is that cost of solar power is dropping each year due to a variety
of technical improvements, with the end not yet in sight.
It may seem incomprehensible to someone from LA-LA-land, but there are
areas that do not have 365 sunny days a year and where average temperature
dips below freezing point for considerable period of time, sometimes for
months.  Unfortunately, Sun does not usually shine when that happens.
You mean, we should not make use of the vast deserts in the U.S. in any
way, shape, or form?
Do you know that the peak electric load are correlated with bright sunny
days due to the need to run air conditioners?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Billy, contrary to what most people think,
the main limitation of photovoltaic power is
not its cost, but its energy density, and
that is not a matter of technology, that is
a matter of simple physics. Even if a solar
cell were able to convert 100% of the sun’s
radiant energy over its area into electricity,
it would not provide enough power for most
applications that are currently dependent on
internal combustion, or peak electricity ge-
neration, such as airconditioning.
Bill Z.
2009-03-12 20:29:26 UTC
Permalink
Billy, contrary to what most people think, the main limitation of
photovoltaic power is not its cost, but its energy density, and that
is not a matter of technology, that is a matter of simple
physics. Even if a solar cell were able to convert 100% of the sun’s
radiant energy over its area into electricity, it would not provide
enough power for most applications that are currently dependent on
internal combustion, or peak electricity ge- neration, such as
airconditioning.
No true at all. The power density for solar radiation is
approximately 1.4 kilowatts per square meter (for a surface
perpendicular to the direction of the radiation), so an area 100 miles
by 100 miles gets 3.5 X 10^13 watts (a fraction of which can be
converted to electricity). You don't need a contiguous area of
that size, of course.

<http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat3p1.html> gives the
851000 Megawatts as the projected peak load for the U.S. in 2012 (this
is the highest number in the table) - 8.51 X 10^11 watts.

You need storage too, of course, but we are most certainly not
constrained by physical limitations. The cost of the facilities are
simply a bit too high right now, but that is improving each year.
kujebak
2009-03-12 22:02:38 UTC
Permalink
Billy, contrary to what most people think, the main limitation of
photovoltaic power is not its cost, but its energy density, and that
is not a matter of technology, that is a matter of simple
physics. Even if a solar cell were able to convert 100% of the sun’s
radiant energy over its area into electricity, it would not provide
enough power for most applications that are currently dependent on
internal combustion, or peak electricity ge- neration, such as
airconditioning.
No true at all.  The power density for solar radiation is
approximately 1.4 kilowatts per square meter (for a surface
perpendicular to the direction of the radiation), so an area 100 miles
by 100 miles gets 3.5 X 10^13 watts (a fraction of which can be
converted to electricity).  You don't need a contiguous area of
that size, of course.
<http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat3p1.html> gives the
851000 Megawatts as the projected peak load for the U.S. in 2012 (this
is the highest number in the table) - 8.51 X 10^11 watts.
You need storage too, of course, but we are most certainly not
constrained by physical limitations.  The cost of the facilities are
simply a bit too high right now, but that is improving each year.
The number you quote, also known as the
"solar constant", is the amount of solar ra-
diation energy measured *above* the earth:

http://tinyurl.com/aznr5v

The amount of energy that is not reflected
and absorbed by the atmosphere is actually
around 200 - 300 watts. 20% (maximum ef-
ficiency of current photovoltaic technologies)
of that is about 50 watts/square meter (the
power of a small light bulb), which is the ma-
ximum amount of electricity that can be ex-
tracted from solar radiation today ;-))
Bill Z.
2009-03-12 22:49:37 UTC
Permalink
Billy, contrary to what most people think, the main limitation of
photovoltaic power is not its cost, but its energy density, and that
is not a matter of technology, that is a matter of simple
physics. Even if a solar cell were able to convert 100% of the sun’s
radiant energy over its area into electricity, it would not provide
enough power for most applications that are currently dependent on
internal combustion, or peak electricity ge- neration, such as
airconditioning.
No true at all.  The power density for solar radiation is
approximately 1.4 kilowatts per square meter (for a surface
perpendicular to the direction of the radiation), so an area 100 miles
by 100 miles gets 3.5 X 10^13 watts (a fraction of which can be
converted to electricity).  You don't need a contiguous area of
that size, of course.
<http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat3p1.html> gives the
851000 Megawatts as the projected peak load for the U.S. in 2012 (this
is the highest number in the table) - 8.51 X 10^11 watts.
You need storage too, of course, but we are most certainly not
constrained by physical limitations.  The cost of the facilities are
simply a bit too high right now, but that is improving each year.
The number you quote, also known as the "solar constant", is the
http://tinyurl.com/aznr5v
The amount of energy that is not reflected and absorbed by the
atmosphere is actually around 200 - 300 watts. 20% (maximum ef-
ficiency of current photovoltaic technologies) of that is about 50
watts/square meter (the power of a small light bulb), which is the
ma- ximum amount of electricity that can be ex- tracted from solar
radiation today ;-))
I know, but using the solar constant is OK - with 3.5 X 10^13 watts
for an area 100 miles by 100 miles, and a requirement of 8.51 X 10^11
watts (worst case), we only have to convert 2.43% to electric power,
which leaves an adequate safety margin for atmospheric absorption and
scattering. Didn't you bother to divide? :-)

With a solar cell efficiency of 20%, even with an 80% loss due to the
atmosphere (your 300 watt number), you'd still be at 4.2 percent -
well over the 2.43% that you need. So, a solar-collection area
equivalent to a square 100 miles on a side is enough for our projected
peak load.

Whether you like it or not, the main limitation is cost, and that is
falling due to improvements in the technology. We aren't yet at the
point where we would see a large shift to solar power, but we are
getting closer each year.
kujebak
2009-03-12 23:53:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Billy, contrary to what most people think, the main limitation of
photovoltaic power is not its cost, but its energy density, and that
is not a matter of technology, that is a matter of simple
physics. Even if a solar cell were able to convert 100% of the sun’s
radiant energy over its area into electricity, it would not provide
enough power for most applications that are currently dependent on
internal combustion, or peak electricity ge- neration, such as
airconditioning.
No true at all.  The power density for solar radiation is
approximately 1.4 kilowatts per square meter (for a surface
perpendicular to the direction of the radiation), so an area 100 miles
by 100 miles gets 3.5 X 10^13 watts (a fraction of which can be
converted to electricity).  You don't need a contiguous area of
that size, of course.
<http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat3p1.html> gives the
851000 Megawatts as the projected peak load for the U.S. in 2012 (this
is the highest number in the table) - 8.51 X 10^11 watts.
You need storage too, of course, but we are most certainly not
constrained by physical limitations.  The cost of the facilities are
simply a bit too high right now, but that is improving each year.
The number you quote, also known as the "solar constant", is the
http://tinyurl.com/aznr5v
The amount of energy that is not reflected and absorbed by the
atmosphere is actually around 200 - 300 watts. 20% (maximum ef-
ficiency of current photovoltaic technologies) of that is about 50
watts/square meter (the power of a small light bulb), which is the
ma- ximum amount of electricity that can be ex- tracted from solar
radiation today ;-))
I know, but using the solar constant is OK - with 3.5 X 10^13 watts
for an area 100 miles by 100 miles, and a requirement of 8.51 X 10^11
watts (worst case), we only have to convert 2.43% to electric power,
which leaves an adequate safety margin for atmospheric absorption and
scattering.  Didn't you bother to divide? :-)
With a solar cell efficiency of 20%, even with an 80% loss due to the
atmosphere (your 300 watt number), you'd still be at 4.2 percent -
well over the 2.43% that you need.  So, a solar-collection area
equivalent to a square 100 miles on a side is enough for our projected
peak load.
Whether you like it or not, the main limitation is cost, and that is
falling due to improvements in the technology.  We aren't yet at the
point where we would see a large shift to solar power, but we are
getting closer each year.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
100 square miles? Now there's a job making idea!
How many full-time window washers do you suppose
it would take to maintain 100 square miles of photo-
voltaic panels? That's 256 million square meters!!
Plenty of underutilized labor in that part of the U.S. :-))
But what about all the H2O required for that purpose?
I guess it could be recycled after we removed all the
soap and grit. Then we could pump it back into the
Colorado. Let's stop at that, and ignore all other fore-
seeable consequences of your idea :-))
Bill Z.
2009-03-13 02:25:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by kujebak
Post by Bill Z.
I know, but using the solar constant is OK - with 3.5 X 10^13 watts
for an area 100 miles by 100 miles, and a requirement of 8.51 X 10^11
watts (worst case), we only have to convert 2.43% to electric power,
which leaves an adequate safety margin for atmospheric absorption and
scattering.  Didn't you bother to divide? :-)
With a solar cell efficiency of 20%, even with an 80% loss due to the
atmosphere (your 300 watt number), you'd still be at 4.2 percent -
well over the 2.43% that you need.  So, a solar-collection area
equivalent to a square 100 miles on a side is enough for our projected
peak load.
Whether you like it or not, the main limitation is cost, and that is
falling due to improvements in the technology.  We aren't yet at the
point where we would see a large shift to solar power, but we are
getting closer each year.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
100 square miles? Now there's a job making idea!
Perhaps you should start with basic arithmetic - a square 100 miles on
a side does not cover 100 square miles, but rather 10,000 square miles.
You seem to have a problem with numbers.
Post by kujebak
How many full-time window washers do you suppose it would take to
maintain 100 square miles of photo- voltaic panels? That's 256
million square meters!!
Sigh. How many window washers are being hired to maintain the solar
cells being installed around town on various roofs? Did it occur
to you that you can use a sprinkler system to wash the things off
as needed?

Come back when you have a serious argument.
PaulJK
2009-03-13 05:57:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Post by kujebak
Post by Bill Z.
I know, but using the solar constant is OK - with 3.5 X 10^13 watts
for an area 100 miles by 100 miles, and a requirement of 8.51 X 10^11
watts (worst case), we only have to convert 2.43% to electric power,
which leaves an adequate safety margin for atmospheric absorption and
scattering. Didn't you bother to divide? :-)
With a solar cell efficiency of 20%, even with an 80% loss due to the
atmosphere (your 300 watt number), you'd still be at 4.2 percent -
well over the 2.43% that you need. So, a solar-collection area
equivalent to a square 100 miles on a side is enough for our projected
peak load.
Whether you like it or not, the main limitation is cost, and that is
falling due to improvements in the technology. We aren't yet at the
point where we would see a large shift to solar power, but we are
getting closer each year.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
100 square miles? Now there's a job making idea!
Perhaps you should start with basic arithmetic - a square 100 miles on
a side does not cover 100 square miles, but rather 10,000 square miles.
You seem to have a problem with numbers.
Now, who is the moron who has a problem with simple numbers!!!

Kujebak said 100 square miles, not 100 mile square.
He also said "256 million square meters" which is roughly
the area of a rectangle of 1 by 100 miles.

100 square kilometers = 100 million square meters
100 square miles = 256 millions square meters
Post by Bill Z.
Post by kujebak
How many full-time window washers do you suppose it would take to
maintain 100 square miles of photo- voltaic panels? That's 256
million square meters!!
Sigh. How many window washers are being hired to maintain the solar
cells being installed around town on various roofs? Did it occur
to you that you can use a sprinkler system to wash the things off
as needed?
Come back when you have a serious argument.
You keep raving about unused US dessert like a demented
moron, how many countries around the world do you think
have hundreds of miles of dessert wasteland?

pjk
kujebak
2009-03-13 06:53:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
Post by kujebak
Post by Bill Z.
I know, but using the solar constant is OK - with 3.5 X 10^13 watts
for an area 100 miles by 100 miles, and a requirement of 8.51 X 10^11
watts (worst case), we only have to convert 2.43% to electric power,
which leaves an adequate safety margin for atmospheric absorption and
scattering. Didn't you bother to divide? :-)
With a solar cell efficiency of 20%, even with an 80% loss due to the
atmosphere (your 300 watt number), you'd still be at 4.2 percent -
well over the 2.43% that you need. So, a solar-collection area
equivalent to a square 100 miles on a side is enough for our projected
peak load.
Whether you like it or not, the main limitation is cost, and that is
falling due to improvements in the technology. We aren't yet at the
point where we would see a large shift to solar power, but we are
getting closer each year.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
100 square miles? Now there's a job making idea!
Perhaps you should start with basic arithmetic - a square 100 miles on
a side does not cover 100 square miles, but rather 10,000 square miles.
You seem to have a problem with numbers.
Now, who is the moron who has a problem with simple numbers!!!
Kujebak said 100 square miles, not 100 mile square.
He also said "256 million square meters" which is roughly
the area of a rectangle of 1 by 100 miles.
100 square kilometers = 100 million square meters
100 square miles = 256 millions square meters
Post by Bill Z.
Post by kujebak
How many full-time window washers do you suppose it would take to
maintain 100 square miles of photo- voltaic panels? That's 256
million square meters!!
Sigh.  How many window washers are being hired to maintain the solar
cells being installed around town on various roofs?  Did it occur
to you that you can use a sprinkler system to wash the things off
as needed?
Come back when you have a serious argument.
You keep raving about unused US dessert like a demented
moron, how many countries around the world do you think
have hundreds of miles of dessert wasteland?
pjk- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Paul, I was just checking if anyone else was paying
attention to this silly debate, and, as usual, poor Billy
fell into his own trap. He is quite right. A square of 100
miles on the side would cover an area of 10 thousand
square miles. That's 25 billion 3-foot solar panels :-))
There clearly wouldn't be enough undocumented labor
(on both sides of the border) to maintain that kind of
a solar array :-)))
Bill Z.
2009-03-13 20:37:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
Come back when you have a serious argument.
You keep raving about unused US dessert like a demented
moron, how many countries around the world do you think
have hundreds of miles of dessert wasteland?
pjk- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Paul, I was just checking if anyone else was paying attention to
this silly debate, and, as usual, poor Billy fell into his own
trap. He is quite right. A square of 100 miles on the side would
cover an area of 10 thousand square miles. That's 25 billion 3-foot
solar panels :-)) There clearly wouldn't be enough undocumented
labor (on both sides of the border) to maintain that kind of a solar
array :-)))
What an idiot - there was no "trap" to fall into. Kujebak is whining
about the cost of maintaining solar energy sources whose total area is
around 10,000 square miles (enough for the *full* U.S. electricity
needs, so in practice we'd use a fraction of that) while ignoring the
cost of energy production from various fuels, which includes not only
running and maintaining the power plants, but transporting and
processing the fuel and finding and getting it (oil exploration,
drilling, uranium or coal mining, etc., not to mention disposing of
waste products.)

Then we can add in the costs that global warming might impose on us,
although it might be too late.
kujebak
2009-03-13 22:18:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
Come back when you have a serious argument.
You keep raving about unused US dessert like a demented
moron, how many countries around the world do you think
have hundreds of miles of dessert wasteland?
pjk- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Paul, I was just checking if anyone else was paying attention to
this silly debate, and, as usual, poor Billy fell into his own
trap. He is quite right. A square of 100 miles on the side would
cover an area of 10 thousand square miles. That's 25 billion 3-foot
solar panels :-)) There clearly wouldn't be enough undocumented
labor (on both sides of the border) to maintain that kind of a solar
array :-)))
What an idiot - there was no "trap" to fall into.  Kujebak is whining
about the cost of maintaining solar energy sources whose total area is
around 10,000 square miles (enough for the *full* U.S. electricity
needs, so in practice we'd use a fraction of that) while ignoring the
cost of energy production from various fuels, which includes not only
running and maintaining the power plants, but transporting and
processing the fuel and finding and getting it (oil exploration,
drilling, uranium or coal mining, etc., not to mention disposing of
waste products.)
In order for solar power to make a difference in our
dependence on fossil fuels and carbon emissions
that aforementioned "fraction" would have to grow
to some meaningful number from its current utterly
insignificant share of 0.05% of our current energy
consumption. Unlike our predominant sources of
electricity, photovoltaic power does not offer the
same economy of scale. In fact, it gets more ex-
pensive to build and to maintain the bigger it needs
to be, and *that* is my point you moron.
Then we can add in the costs that global warming
might impose on us, although it might be too late.
- Hide quoted text -

If it is already too late, and the presumed econo-
mic implications of global warming are inevitable,
regardless of what we do from now on, then why
bother? ;-)
- Show quoted text -
Bill Z.
2009-03-13 22:45:00 UTC
Permalink
What an idiot - there was no "trap" to fall into.  Kujebak is whining
about the cost of maintaining solar energy sources whose total area is
around 10,000 square miles (enough for the *full* U.S. electricity
needs, so in practice we'd use a fraction of that) while ignoring the
cost of energy production from various fuels, which includes not only
running and maintaining the power plants, but transporting and
processing the fuel and finding and getting it (oil exploration,
drilling, uranium or coal mining, etc., not to mention disposing of
waste products.)
In order for solar power to make a difference in our dependence on
fossil fuels and carbon emissions that aforementioned "fraction"
would have to grow to some meaningful number from its current
utterly insignificant share of 0.05% of our current energy
consumption. Unlike our predominant sources of electricity,
photovoltaic power does not offer the same economy of scale. In
fact, it gets more ex- pensive to build and to maintain the bigger
it needs to be, and *that* is my point you moron.
No, it makes you look like either a fool or a liar. The cost of
photovoltaic power grows at most linearly with the size of the
facility, and the reason the "share" is currently so small is
that costs haven't dropped far enough, although those costs are
dropping each year. If it isn't likely to pay off, there wouldn't
be so much VC money going into solar cells.

BTW, the cost of any power plant gets more "expensive to build and
to maintain" the larger it is. It's the cost per kilowatt produced
that is the critical number.
Then we can add in the costs that global warming
might impose on us, although it might be too late.
If it is already too late, and the presumed economic implications
of global warming are inevitable, regardless of what we do from now
on, then why bother? ;-)
Because it could be even worse if we do nothing. Note too that I
said "might be too late", not "is too late".
PaulJK
2009-03-14 05:46:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
What an idiot - there was no "trap" to fall into. Kujebak is whining
about the cost of maintaining solar energy sources whose total area is
around 10,000 square miles (enough for the *full* U.S. electricity
needs, so in practice we'd use a fraction of that) while ignoring the
cost of energy production from various fuels, which includes not only
running and maintaining the power plants, but transporting and
processing the fuel and finding and getting it (oil exploration,
drilling, uranium or coal mining, etc., not to mention disposing of
waste products.)
In order for solar power to make a difference in our dependence on
fossil fuels and carbon emissions that aforementioned "fraction"
would have to grow to some meaningful number from its current
utterly insignificant share of 0.05% of our current energy
consumption. Unlike our predominant sources of electricity,
photovoltaic power does not offer the same economy of scale. In
fact, it gets more ex- pensive to build and to maintain the bigger
it needs to be, and *that* is my point you moron.
No, it makes you look like either a fool or a liar. The cost of
photovoltaic power grows at most linearly with the size of the
facility,
In other words it gets more expensive to build and to maintain
the bigger it needs to be. To make, install, and maintain twice
as many photovoltaic cells costs twice as much.

To build, install, and maintain 200MW power station costs
more than 100MW power station, but it's significantly less
than twice as much.

pjk
Post by Bill Z.
and the reason the "share" is currently so small is
that costs haven't dropped far enough, although those costs are
dropping each year. If it isn't likely to pay off, there wouldn't
be so much VC money going into solar cells.
BTW, the cost of any power plant gets more "expensive to build and
to maintain" the larger it is. It's the cost per kilowatt produced
that is the critical number.
Then we can add in the costs that global warming
might impose on us, although it might be too late.
If it is already too late, and the presumed economic implications
of global warming are inevitable, regardless of what we do from now
on, then why bother? ;-)
Because it could be even worse if we do nothing. Note too that I
said "might be too late", not "is too late".
kujebak
2009-03-14 19:04:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
What an idiot - there was no "trap" to fall into. Kujebak is whining
about the cost of maintaining solar energy sources whose total area is
around 10,000 square miles (enough for the *full* U.S. electricity
needs, so in practice we'd use a fraction of that) while ignoring the
cost of energy production from various fuels, which includes not only
running and maintaining the power plants, but transporting and
processing the fuel and finding and getting it (oil exploration,
drilling, uranium or coal mining, etc., not to mention disposing of
waste products.)
In order for solar power to make a difference in our dependence on
fossil fuels and carbon emissions that aforementioned "fraction"
would have to grow to some meaningful number from its current
utterly insignificant share of 0.05% of our current energy
consumption. Unlike our predominant sources of electricity,
photovoltaic power does not offer the same economy of scale. In
fact, it gets more ex- pensive to build and to maintain the bigger
it needs to be, and *that* is my point you moron.
No, it makes you look like either a fool or a liar. The cost of
photovoltaic power grows at most linearly with the size of the
facility,
In other words it gets more expensive to build and to maintain
the bigger it needs to be. To make, install, and maintain twice
as many photovoltaic cells costs twice as much.
To build, install, and maintain 200MW power station costs
more than 100MW power station, but it's significantly less
than twice as much.
pjk
Paul, between you and I, no matter what the topic, this
dude will always have the last word. Debating Bill Zaumen
is sort of like stepping in pasty dog poo. It never wears off.
You just have to change your shoes and go on :-)
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
and the reason the "share" is currently so small is
that costs haven't dropped far enough, although those costs are
dropping each year.  If it isn't likely to pay off, there wouldn't
be so much VC money going into solar cells.
BTW, the cost of any power plant gets more "expensive to build and
to maintain" the larger it is.  It's the cost per kilowatt produced
that is the critical number.
Then we can add in the costs that global warming
might impose on us, although it might be too late.
If it is already too late, and the presumed economic implications
of global warming are inevitable, regardless of what we do from now
on, then why bother? ;-)
Because it could be even worse if we do nothing. Note too that I
said "might be too late", not "is too late".- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Bill Z.
2009-03-14 19:50:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by kujebak
Paul, between you and I, no matter what the topic, this
dude will always have the last word. Debating Bill Zaumen
is sort of like stepping in pasty dog poo. It never wears off.
You just have to change your shoes and go on :-)
When you failed basic multiplication, don't expect to be
taken seriously - and Paul was of course completely wrong about
it, as my previous post from a few minutes ago indicates.
Bill Z.
2009-03-14 19:48:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulJK
In other words it gets more expensive to build and to maintain
the bigger it needs to be. To make, install, and maintain twice
as many photovoltaic cells costs twice as much.
To build, install, and maintain 200MW power station costs
more than 100MW power station, but it's significantly less
than twice as much.
Very naive view of the technology on your part.
<http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/09/does-a-big-economy-need-big-power-plants-a-guest-post/>:

Bigger power plants' hoped-for economies of scale were
overwhelmed by diseconomies of scale. Central thermal power
plants stopped getting more efficient in the 1960's, bigger in
the 1970's, cheaper in the 1980's, and bought in the
1990's. Smaller units offered greater economies from mass
production than big ones could gain through unit size.

(The "guest post" was written by Amory B. Lovins, who is the chairman
and chief scientist at the Rocky Mountain Institute and an expert on
the subject).
kujebak
2009-03-15 07:38:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Post by PaulJK
In other words it gets more expensive to build and to maintain
the bigger it needs to be. To make, install, and maintain twice
as many photovoltaic cells costs twice as much.
To build, install, and maintain 200MW power station costs
more than 100MW power station, but it's significantly less
than twice as much.
Very naive view of the technology on your part.
        Bigger power plants' hoped-for economies of scale were
        overwhelmed by diseconomies of scale. Central thermal power
        plants stopped getting more efficient in the 1960's, bigger in
        the 1970's, cheaper in the 1980's, and bought in the
        1990's. Smaller units offered greater economies from mass
        production than big ones could gain through unit size.
(The "guest post" was written by Amory B. Lovins, who is the chairman
and chief scientist at the Rocky Mountain Institute and an expert on
the subject).
Lovins and his wife are tree-hugging ecofreaks. The guy is
known primarily for his invention of the idea of energy credit
trading. Lovins’ “negawats” (a megawat saved being more
important than a megawat produced) were to be traded like
“indulgences” were by the Catholic Church in fourteenth cen-
tury Europe. Billy, when you said you too “were on the net
before it was called internet”, were you really talking about
the smut purveying BBSs? ;-)
Bill Z.
2009-03-16 18:16:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by kujebak
Post by Bill Z.
Post by PaulJK
In other words it gets more expensive to build and to maintain
the bigger it needs to be. To make, install, and maintain twice
as many photovoltaic cells costs twice as much.
To build, install, and maintain 200MW power station costs
more than 100MW power station, but it's significantly less
than twice as much.
Very naive view of the technology on your part.
        Bigger power plants' hoped-for economies of scale were
        overwhelmed by diseconomies of scale. Central thermal power
        plants stopped getting more efficient in the 1960's, bigger in
        the 1970's, cheaper in the 1980's, and bought in the
        1990's. Smaller units offered greater economies from mass
        production than big ones could gain through unit size.
(The "guest post" was written by Amory B. Lovins, who is the chairman
and chief scientist at the Rocky Mountain Institute and an expert on
the subject).
Lovins and his wife are tree-hugging ecofreaks.
<snip> - come back when you have something serious to say instead of
trying an ad hominem argument to avoid dealing with the facts.
Post by kujebak
Billy, when you said you too “were on the net before it was
called internet”, were you really talking about the smut purveying
BBSs? ;-)
Ever hear of the ARPANET? Now, why don't you try acting like an
adult for a change?
Bill Z.
2009-03-13 20:29:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
Post by kujebak
Post by Bill Z.
I know, but using the solar constant is OK - with 3.5 X 10^13 watts
for an area 100 miles by 100 miles, and a requirement of 8.51 X 10^11
watts (worst case), we only have to convert 2.43% to electric power,
which leaves an adequate safety margin for atmospheric absorption and
scattering. Didn't you bother to divide? :-)
With a solar cell efficiency of 20%, even with an 80% loss due to the
atmosphere (your 300 watt number), you'd still be at 4.2 percent -
well over the 2.43% that you need. So, a solar-collection area
equivalent to a square 100 miles on a side is enough for our projected
peak load.
Whether you like it or not, the main limitation is cost, and that is
falling due to improvements in the technology. We aren't yet at the
point where we would see a large shift to solar power, but we are
getting closer each year.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
100 square miles? Now there's a job making idea!
Perhaps you should start with basic arithmetic - a square 100 miles on
a side does not cover 100 square miles, but rather 10,000 square miles.
You seem to have a problem with numbers.
Now, who is the moron who has a problem with simple numbers!!!
You and Kujebak, obviously, for the reasons given below.
Post by PaulJK
Kujebak said 100 square miles, not 100 mile square.
He also said "256 million square meters" which is roughly
the area of a rectangle of 1 by 100 miles.
You need to learn to read: I had originally indicated a square 100
miles on a side and Kujebak turned that into 100 square miles in
his reply. I pointed out that he got it wrong - misinterpreting
what I had said.
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
Sigh. How many window washers are being hired to maintain the solar
cells being installed around town on various roofs? Did it occur
to you that you can use a sprinkler system to wash the things off
as needed?
Come back when you have a serious argument.
You keep raving about unused US dessert like a demented
moron, how many countries around the world do you think
have hundreds of miles of dessert wasteland?
While some restaurants may have what could be called a "dessert
wasteland", various countries, including the U.S. have deserts.
And I wasn't "raving" - which in your case seems to mean that you
don't like the facts.
PaulJK
2009-03-14 05:18:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
Post by kujebak
Post by Bill Z.
I know, but using the solar constant is OK - with 3.5 X 10^13 watts
for an area 100 miles by 100 miles, and a requirement of 8.51 X 10^11
watts (worst case), we only have to convert 2.43% to electric power,
which leaves an adequate safety margin for atmospheric absorption and
scattering. Didn't you bother to divide? :-)
With a solar cell efficiency of 20%, even with an 80% loss due to the
atmosphere (your 300 watt number), you'd still be at 4.2 percent -
well over the 2.43% that you need. So, a solar-collection area
equivalent to a square 100 miles on a side is enough for our projected
peak load.
Whether you like it or not, the main limitation is cost, and that is
falling due to improvements in the technology. We aren't yet at the
point where we would see a large shift to solar power, but we are
getting closer each year.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
100 square miles? Now there's a job making idea!
Perhaps you should start with basic arithmetic - a square 100 miles on
a side does not cover 100 square miles, but rather 10,000 square miles.
You seem to have a problem with numbers.
Now, who is the moron who has a problem with simple numbers!!!
You and Kujebak, obviously, for the reasons given below.
Post by PaulJK
Kujebak said 100 square miles, not 100 mile square.
He also said "256 million square meters" which is roughly
the area of a rectangle of 1 by 100 miles.
You need to learn to read: I had originally indicated a square 100
miles on a side and Kujebak turned that into 100 square miles in
I was commenting on kujebak's "100 square miles".
Post by Bill Z.
his reply. I pointed out that he got it wrong - misinterpreting
what I had said.
Okay, you still don't understand what's going on here, do you.
I tell you what the real reason, for us (that is me and you) talking
cross-purposes like this, is.

Your English is not the same as our English over here.
When we say "mile", we mean a distance of approximately 1.6 km
When we say "square mile", we mean an area of approximately 2.6 km^2
When we say "100 square miles", we mean an area of one hundred of
those square miles, which is approximately 2600 km^2, that is
how gods meant it to be :-).

Of course, in real life, we don't say "mile" very often at all, we
have not much practical use for any of those archaic imperial
measurements like miles, feet, inches, gallons, etc.

When I say 100 square kilometers in our English it will *always*
mean an area of 100km^, for example, 10km by 10km square,
and it may absolutely *never* ever mean an area of 10000km^2,
a square 100km by 100km.
Post by Bill Z.
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
Sigh. How many window washers are being hired to maintain the solar
cells being installed around town on various roofs? Did it occur
to you that you can use a sprinkler system to wash the things off
as needed?
Come back when you have a serious argument.
You keep raving about unused US dessert like a demented
moron, how many countries around the world do you think
have hundreds of miles of dessert wasteland?
While some restaurants may have what could be called a "dessert
wasteland", various countries, including the U.S. have deserts.
Well, thanks for the correction. My English spelling isn't 100%,
especially when I write quickly as I did then. On purpose,
I don't use spell checkers.

English is not my first language, not even second, third, or fourth.
How good is your spelling in your fifth language?
Is it as bad as mine?

pjk
Post by Bill Z.
And I wasn't "raving" - which in your case seems to mean that you
don't like the facts.
Bill Z.
2009-03-14 19:21:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
Post by PaulJK
Post by kujebak
Post by Bill Z.
I know, but using the solar constant is OK - with 3.5 X 10^13 watts
for an area 100 miles by 100 miles, and a requirement of 8.51 X 10^11
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
Post by PaulJK
Post by kujebak
Post by Bill Z.
watts (worst case), we only have to convert 2.43% to electric power,
which leaves an adequate safety margin for atmospheric absorption and
scattering. Didn't you bother to divide? :-)
100 square miles? Now there's a job making idea!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
You and Kujebak, obviously, for the reasons given below.
Post by PaulJK
Kujebak said 100 square miles, not 100 mile square.
He also said "256 million square meters" which is roughly
the area of a rectangle of 1 by 100 miles.
You need to learn to read: I had originally indicated a square 100
miles on a side and Kujebak turned that into 100 square miles in
I was commenting on kujebak's "100 square miles".
...which kujeback misintepretted. I've underlined the key phrases
in the posts for you - it was right in front of your face but you
obviously need some help. Kujeback turned a square 100 miles on a
side into an area of 100 square miles.
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
his reply. I pointed out that he got it wrong - misinterpreting
what I had said.
Okay, you still don't understand what's going on here, do you.
No, I do understand - you are simply an idiot.
Post by PaulJK
I tell you what the real reason, for us (that is me and you) talking
cross-purposes like this, is.
Your English is not the same as our English over here.
When we say "mile", we mean a distance of approximately 1.6 km
When we say "square mile", we mean an area of approximately 2.6 km^2
When we say "100 square miles", we mean an area of one hundred of
those square miles, which is approximately 2600 km^2, that is
how gods meant it to be :-).
When someone says "100 square miles?" in response to a statement about
a sqaure 100 miles on a side, it is obvious that he got something
wrong.
Post by PaulJK
Of course, in real life, we don't say "mile" very often at all, we
have not much practical use for any of those archaic imperial
measurements like miles, feet, inches, gallons, etc.
Well, some of us live in the U.S. and have to make allowances for the
people reading this stuff - I had originally replied to was someone
living in the U.S. (hence his problem with "liberals") and this was
posted on ba.politics (ba refers to the region surrounding San
Francisco Bay).

<rest of this moron's mindless pontificating snipped and ignored>
PaulJK
2009-03-15 05:39:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
Post by PaulJK
Post by kujebak
Post by Bill Z.
I know, but using the solar constant is OK - with 3.5 X 10^13 watts
for an area 100 miles by 100 miles, and a requirement of 8.51 X 10^11
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
Post by PaulJK
Post by kujebak
Post by Bill Z.
watts (worst case), we only have to convert 2.43% to electric power,
which leaves an adequate safety margin for atmospheric absorption and
scattering. Didn't you bother to divide? :-)
100 square miles? Now there's a job making idea!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
You and Kujebak, obviously, for the reasons given below.
Post by PaulJK
Kujebak said 100 square miles, not 100 mile square.
He also said "256 million square meters" which is roughly
the area of a rectangle of 1 by 100 miles.
You need to learn to read: I had originally indicated a square 100
miles on a side and Kujebak turned that into 100 square miles in
I was commenting on kujebak's "100 square miles".
...which kujeback misintepretted. I've underlined the key phrases
in the posts for you - it was right in front of your face but you
obviously need some help. Kujeback turned a square 100 miles on a
side into an area of 100 square miles.
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
his reply. I pointed out that he got it wrong - misinterpreting
what I had said.
Okay, you still don't understand what's going on here, do you.
No, I do understand - you are simply an idiot.
Post by PaulJK
I tell you what the real reason, for us (that is me and you) talking
cross-purposes like this, is.
Your English is not the same as our English over here.
When we say "mile", we mean a distance of approximately 1.6 km
When we say "square mile", we mean an area of approximately 2.6 km^2
When we say "100 square miles", we mean an area of one hundred of
those square miles, which is approximately 2600 km^2, that is
how gods meant it to be :-).
When someone says "100 square miles?" in response to a statement about
a sqaure 100 miles on a side, it is obvious that he got something
wrong.
Post by PaulJK
Of course, in real life, we don't say "mile" very often at all, we
have not much practical use for any of those archaic imperial
measurements like miles, feet, inches, gallons, etc.
Well, some of us live in the U.S. and have to make allowances for the
people reading this stuff - I had originally replied to was someone
living in the U.S. (hence his problem with "liberals") and this was
posted on ba.politics (ba refers to the region surrounding San
Francisco Bay).
I couldn't care less what ba was. You posted to s.c.c-s
as primary news group, it is a social culture group for Czech
and Slovak nationals and emigrees around the world.
You shouldn't find it surprising if you get people from over
the globe sneering at your domestic problems and your
antiquated systems of measures. You might want to
consider quiting posting off topic articles to s.c.c-s.
Post by Bill Z.
<rest of this moron's mindless pontificating snipped and ignored>
You seem to be one of the LALAlander who's unable to respond
with nothing but mindless inanities or crude insults.
pjk
Justin Case
2009-03-15 05:57:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulJK
You seem to be one of the LALAlander who's unable to respond
with nothing but mindless inanities or crude insults.
You have to excuse the rantings of Bill Z. He has diarrhea of the
mouth and constipation of the brain.

--
Bill Z.
2009-03-15 07:13:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin Case
Post by PaulJK
You seem to be one of the LALAlander who's unable to respond
with nothing but mindless inanities or crude insults.
You have to excuse the rantings of Bill Z. He has diarrhea of the
mouth and constipation of the brain.
Another "conservative" idiot.
Stan de SD
2009-03-17 21:53:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulJK
You seem to be one of the LALAlander who's unable to respond
with nothing but mindless inanities or crude insults.
You have to excuse the rantings of Bill Z.  He has diarrhea of the
mouth and constipation of the brain.
May I also add that Silly Billy Zaumen has this silly habit of
twisting things around so he can play "gotcha", as well as an
obsessive-compulsive need to have the LAST word in ANY discussion.
Count on a typical BZ thread to extend itself to 200+ posts, and be
long off-topic halfway through... :O|
Bill Z.
2009-03-18 01:29:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
Post by PaulJK
You seem to be one of the LALAlander who's unable to respond
with nothing but mindless inanities or crude insults.
You have to excuse the rantings of Bill Z.  He has diarrhea of the
mouth and constipation of the brain.
May I also add that Silly Billy Zaumen has this silly habit of
twisting things around so he can play "gotcha", as well as an
obsessive-compulsive need to have the LAST word in ANY discussion.
Count on a typical BZ thread to extend itself to 200+ posts, and be
long off-topic halfway through... :O|
Stan de SD + right-wing friends are a group of bald-faced liars.
Stan in particular has a long standing grudge after he made a fool
of himself regarding a certain incident in Southern California
and has not gotten over it. As to "off topic" threads, Stan
seems to start it and then whines if he gets a reply.
Justin Case
2009-03-18 05:52:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Stan de SD + right-wing friends are a group of bald-faced liars.
Stan in particular has a long standing grudge after he made a fool
of himself regarding a certain incident in Southern California
and has not gotten over it. As to "off topic" threads, Stan
seems to start it and then whines if he gets a reply.
Just more drivel from our resident left wing nutcase.

--
Bill Z.
2009-03-18 06:16:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin Case
Post by Bill Z.
Stan de SD + right-wing friends are a group of bald-faced liars.
Stan in particular has a long standing grudge after he made a fool
of himself regarding a certain incident in Southern California
and has not gotten over it. As to "off topic" threads, Stan
seems to start it and then whines if he gets a reply.
Just more drivel from our resident left wing nutcase.
You right-wing loons are hopeless.
Bill Z.
2009-03-15 07:12:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
Well, some of us live in the U.S. and have to make allowances for the
people reading this stuff - I had originally replied to was someone
living in the U.S. (hence his problem with "liberals") and this was
posted on ba.politics (ba refers to the region surrounding San
Francisco Bay).
I couldn't care less what ba was. You posted to s.c.c-s
as primary news group, it is a social culture group for Czech
and Slovak nationals and emigrees around the world.
No, I replied to a post that appeared on ba.politics - someone
else set up the cross posting and I simply didn't notice that
they had done that.
Post by PaulJK
You shouldn't find it surprising if you get people from over
the globe sneering at your domestic problems and your
antiquated systems of measures. You might want to
consider quiting posting off topic articles to s.c.c-s.
It's not "my" antiquated system of measures - I don't set U.S.
conventions, but just have to put up with them.

BTW, the comments I made are as applicable to Europe as here.
See <http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article5887597.ece>.

So, get back when you have something serious to say. If you don't
like the cross posting, blame the person who added your newsgroup
in the first place - it wasn't me.
Frank Bures
2009-03-13 17:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Orval Fairbairn
Only when dilithium crystals, naqueda or some such product of science
fiction comes out will we get the quantum improvement in electric
storage (or generation) necessary to make electric cars practical.
I'm sure one or the other is in the liberal's playbook when the eco-
fruit-loops shoot down fossil fuel use for good... :O|
<http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2006/12/solar-cell-breaks-the-40-efficiency-barrier-46765>
"installed cost of $3 per Watt" (Yes Watt not watt as renewable...com thinks).
So an equivalent of a small coal-fired power plant (800MW) would cost some
$2.4 billion just for the solar cells. Plus all the infrastructure. And
it would produce electricity for the same price, but only when the weather
is right, during the day and when the elements are not covered with snow or
any other contaminants. I cannot even start to envision how much surface
space it would need. Nuts.
No, not "nuts" - the whole point is that the cost for solar cells is
dropping rapidly per year. And you got the economics wrong as well,
as the cost for a coal-fired plant is not just the capital cost of the
plant, but that plus the cost of the coal (including transporting it).
I considered the capital costs only. The cost of coal is included in the
cost of kWh produced.
Post by Bill Z.
Then you have to include maintanence and the lifetime of the facilities
(for both).
I did not considered maintenance as it was irrelevant from the standpoint
of the article quoted.
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
<http://www.photonics.com/Content/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=26247>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090225223324.htm>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080222125628.htm>
<http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/34053/title/Solar_panels_to_dye_for>
That's all very nice in the theory and inside a lab. Any mass-application
Installation and operational costs including space requirements.
Ability to store the energy when it is produced for later distribution.
Sigh. The key fact you should have gotten from all of the citations
above is that cost of solar power is dropping each year due to a variety
of technical improvements, with the end not yet in sight.
We can agree on that.
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Frank Bures
It may seem incomprehensible to someone from LA-LA-land, but there are
areas that do not have 365 sunny days a year and where average temperature
dips below freezing point for considerable period of time, sometimes for
months. Unfortunately, Sun does not usually shine when that happens.
You mean, we should not make use of the vast deserts in the U.S. in any
way, shape, or form?
Why not. Cost of infrastructure would probably be prohibitive though.
Post by Bill Z.
Do you know that the peak electric load are correlated with bright sunny
days due to the need to run air conditioners?
Yeah, tell me about it. It is bright sunshine outside, -10C.
The main reason for A/C usage around here is to dry the unbearably humid
air, so that one can sleep without repeatedly taking cold showers through
the night.

As I said, LA-LA-Land does not cover the whole Earth, not even the whole
North America.

Cheers
Frank
--
<***@chem.toronto.edu>
Bill Z.
2009-03-13 20:45:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
No, not "nuts" - the whole point is that the cost for solar cells is
dropping rapidly per year. And you got the economics wrong as well,
as the cost for a coal-fired plant is not just the capital cost of the
plant, but that plus the cost of the coal (including transporting it).
I considered the capital costs only. The cost of coal is included in the
cost of kWh produced.
Post by Bill Z.
Then you have to include maintanence and the lifetime of the facilities
(for both).
I did not considered maintenance as it was irrelevant from the standpoint
of the article quoted.
Well, you should as that is part of the actual cost in both cases.
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
<http://www.photonics.com/Content/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=26247>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090225223324.htm>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080222125628.htm>
<http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/34053/title/Solar_panels_to_dye_for>
That's all very nice in the theory and inside a lab. Any mass-application
Installation and operational costs including space requirements.
Ability to store the energy when it is produced for later distribution.
Sigh. The key fact you should have gotten from all of the citations
above is that cost of solar power is dropping each year due to a variety
of technical improvements, with the end not yet in sight.
We can agree on that.
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Frank Bures
It may seem incomprehensible to someone from LA-LA-land, but there are
areas that do not have 365 sunny days a year and where average temperature
dips below freezing point for considerable period of time, sometimes for
months. Unfortunately, Sun does not usually shine when that happens.
You mean, we should not make use of the vast deserts in the U.S. in any
way, shape, or form?
Why not. Cost of infrastructure would probably be prohibitive though.
The existing infrastructure will have to be replaced anyway. As we do
that, we might as well do the right thing.
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
Do you know that the peak electric load are correlated with bright sunny
days due to the need to run air conditioners?
Yeah, tell me about it. It is bright sunshine outside, -10C.
You do know that the peak load occurs during the summer, don't you? I
provided a citation to data providing that.
Post by Frank Bures
The main reason for A/C usage around here is to dry the unbearably humid
air, so that one can sleep without repeatedly taking cold showers through
the night.
As I said, LA-LA-Land does not cover the whole Earth, not even the whole
North America.
Perhaps you do not realize that office buildings are generally airconditioned,
and those airconditioners are on during the day, and probably at night as
well - if you are hot and humid, so are the computers, and computers don't
like that.

BTW, you'd look less ridiculous if you avoided terms like "LA-LA-Land".
PaulJK
2009-03-14 05:37:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
No, not "nuts" - the whole point is that the cost for solar cells is
dropping rapidly per year. And you got the economics wrong as well,
as the cost for a coal-fired plant is not just the capital cost of the
plant, but that plus the cost of the coal (including transporting it).
I considered the capital costs only. The cost of coal is included in the
cost of kWh produced.
Post by Bill Z.
Then you have to include maintanence and the lifetime of the facilities
(for both).
I did not considered maintenance as it was irrelevant from the standpoint
of the article quoted.
Well, you should as that is part of the actual cost in both cases.
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
<http://www.photonics.com/Content/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=26247>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090225223324.htm>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080222125628.htm>
<http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/34053/title/Solar_panels_to_dye_for>
That's all very nice in the theory and inside a lab. Any mass-application
Installation and operational costs including space requirements.
Ability to store the energy when it is produced for later distribution.
Sigh. The key fact you should have gotten from all of the citations
above is that cost of solar power is dropping each year due to a variety
of technical improvements, with the end not yet in sight.
We can agree on that.
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Frank Bures
It may seem incomprehensible to someone from LA-LA-land, but there are
areas that do not have 365 sunny days a year and where average temperature
dips below freezing point for considerable period of time, sometimes for
months. Unfortunately, Sun does not usually shine when that happens.
You mean, we should not make use of the vast deserts in the U.S. in any
way, shape, or form?
Why not. Cost of infrastructure would probably be prohibitive though.
The existing infrastructure will have to be replaced anyway. As we do
that, we might as well do the right thing.
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
Do you know that the peak electric load are correlated with bright sunny
days due to the need to run air conditioners?
Yeah, tell me about it. It is bright sunshine outside, -10C.
You do know that the peak load occurs during the summer, don't you? I
provided a citation to data providing that.
Post by Frank Bures
The main reason for A/C usage around here is to dry the unbearably humid
air, so that one can sleep without repeatedly taking cold showers through
the night.
As I said, LA-LA-Land does not cover the whole Earth, not even the whole
North America.
Perhaps you do not realize that office buildings are generally airconditioned,
and those airconditioners are on during the day, and probably at night as
well - if you are hot and humid, so are the computers, and computers don't
like that.
BTW, you'd look less ridiculous if you avoided terms like "LA-LA-Land".
If it fits, wear it.

It's typical for a LA-LA-Land person to assume that everywhere
around the world the peak demand for electricity generation
occurs in summer, just like in LA-LA-land.

It's the same as if I assumed that everybody's problem
around the world would be quickly solved if only they built
more efficient geothermal electricity generators and put
up more dams to harness the power of rivers running from
the glaciers and mountain snow fields as we do down here.

It's late summer here, I can tell you, the only electricity I have
used during the last several months was to run couple fridges,
TVs, HIFIs, lights, and a shower water heater.

pjk
Bill Z.
2009-03-14 19:30:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
BTW, you'd look less ridiculous if you avoided terms like "LA-LA-Land".
If it fits, wear it.
It's typical for a LA-LA-Land person to assume that everywhere
around the world the peak demand for electricity generation
occurs in summer, just like in LA-LA-land.
You really are an idiot. Peak demand for electricity is determined
primarily by the energy consumed by air conditioners (and possibly
refrigeration in some cases where air conditioning is not used), which
is highest during the hottest times of the year.

We aren't talking about third-world rural areas - those don't use
much electricity to begin with. If we were talking about those,
the news groups would be different.

And using terms like "LA-LA-Land" really does make you look like an
idiot.
Stan de SD
2009-03-17 21:55:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Bill Z.
No, not "nuts" - the whole point is that the cost for solar cells is
dropping rapidly per year.  And you got the economics wrong as well,
as the cost for a coal-fired plant is not just the capital cost of the
plant, but that plus the cost of the coal (including transporting it).
I considered the capital costs only.  The cost of coal is included in the
cost of kWh produced.
Post by Bill Z.
Then you have to include maintanence and the lifetime of the facilities
(for both).
I did not considered maintenance as it was irrelevant from the standpoint
of the article quoted.
Well, you should as that is part of the actual cost in both cases.
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Bill Z.
<http://www.photonics.com/Content/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=26247>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090225223324.htm>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080222125628.htm>
<http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/34053/title/Solar_panels_t...>
That's all very nice in the theory and inside a lab.  Any mass-application
Installation and operational costs including space requirements.
Ability to store the energy when it is produced for later distribution.
Sigh.  The key fact you should have gotten from all of the citations
above is that cost of solar power is dropping each year due to a variety
of technical improvements, with the end not yet in sight.
We can agree on that.
Post by Bill Z.
It may seem incomprehensible to someone from LA-LA-land, but there are
areas that do not have 365 sunny days a year and where average temperature
dips below freezing point for considerable period of time, sometimes for
months.  Unfortunately, Sun does not usually shine when that happens.
You mean, we should not make use of the vast deserts in the U.S. in any
way, shape, or form?
Why not.  Cost of infrastructure would probably be prohibitive though.
The existing infrastructure will have to be replaced anyway.  As we do
that, we might as well do the right thing.
Post by Bill Z.
Do you know that the peak electric load are correlated with bright sunny
days due to the need to run air conditioners?
Yeah, tell me about it.  It is bright sunshine outside, -10C.
You do know that the peak load occurs during the summer, don't you? I
provided a citation to data providing that.
The main reason for A/C usage around here is to dry the unbearably humid
air, so that one can sleep without repeatedly taking cold showers through
the night.
As I said, LA-LA-Land does not cover the whole Earth, not even the whole
North America.
Perhaps you do not realize that office buildings are generally airconditioned,
and those airconditioners are on during the day, and probably at night as
well - if you are hot and humid, so are the computers, and computers don't
like that.
BTW, you'd look less ridiculous if you avoided terms like "LA-LA-Land".
If it fits, wear it.
It's typical for a LA-LA-Land person to assume that everywhere
around the world the peak demand for electricity generation
occurs in summer, just like in LA-LA-land.
Slight correction: Bill's from "Frisco", a land so demented that it
makes LA look sane and rational by comparison.
Bill Z.
2009-03-18 01:30:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Bill Z.
No, not "nuts" - the whole point is that the cost for solar cells is
dropping rapidly per year.  And you got the economics wrong as well,
as the cost for a coal-fired plant is not just the capital cost of the
plant, but that plus the cost of the coal (including transporting it).
I considered the capital costs only.  The cost of coal is included in the
cost of kWh produced.
Post by Bill Z.
Then you have to include maintanence and the lifetime of the facilities
(for both).
I did not considered maintenance as it was irrelevant from the standpoint
of the article quoted.
Well, you should as that is part of the actual cost in both cases.
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Bill Z.
<http://www.photonics.com/Content/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=26247>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090225223324.htm>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080222125628.htm>
<http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/34053/title/Solar_panels_t...>
That's all very nice in the theory and inside a lab.  Any mass-application
Installation and operational costs including space requirements.
Ability to store the energy when it is produced for later distribution.
Sigh.  The key fact you should have gotten from all of the citations
above is that cost of solar power is dropping each year due to a variety
of technical improvements, with the end not yet in sight.
We can agree on that.
Post by Bill Z.
It may seem incomprehensible to someone from LA-LA-land, but there are
areas that do not have 365 sunny days a year and where average temperature
dips below freezing point for considerable period of time, sometimes for
months.  Unfortunately, Sun does not usually shine when that happens.
You mean, we should not make use of the vast deserts in the U.S. in any
way, shape, or form?
Why not.  Cost of infrastructure would probably be prohibitive though.
The existing infrastructure will have to be replaced anyway.  As we do
that, we might as well do the right thing.
Post by Bill Z.
Do you know that the peak electric load are correlated with bright sunny
days due to the need to run air conditioners?
Yeah, tell me about it.  It is bright sunshine outside, -10C.
You do know that the peak load occurs during the summer, don't you? I
provided a citation to data providing that.
The main reason for A/C usage around here is to dry the unbearably humid
air, so that one can sleep without repeatedly taking cold showers through
the night.
As I said, LA-LA-Land does not cover the whole Earth, not even the whole
North America.
Perhaps you do not realize that office buildings are generally airconditioned,
and those airconditioners are on during the day, and probably at night as
well - if you are hot and humid, so are the computers, and computers don't
like that.
BTW, you'd look less ridiculous if you avoided terms like "LA-LA-Land".
If it fits, wear it.
It's typical for a LA-LA-Land person to assume that everywhere
around the world the peak demand for electricity generation
occurs in summer, just like in LA-LA-land.
Slight correction: Bill's from "Frisco", a land so demented that it
makes LA look sane and rational by comparison.
Another lie on Stan de SD's part - I don't live in San Francisco but
rather about 50 km (30 miles) away.
kujebak
2009-03-18 18:37:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Stan de SD
Post by PaulJK
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Bill Z.
No, not "nuts" - the whole point is that the cost for solar cells is
dropping rapidly per year.  And you got the economics wrong as well,
as the cost for a coal-fired plant is not just the capital cost of the
plant, but that plus the cost of the coal (including transporting it).
I considered the capital costs only.  The cost of coal is included in the
cost of kWh produced.
Post by Bill Z.
Then you have to include maintanence and the lifetime of the facilities
(for both).
I did not considered maintenance as it was irrelevant from the standpoint
of the article quoted.
Well, you should as that is part of the actual cost in both cases.
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Bill Z.
<http://www.photonics.com/Content/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=26247>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090225223324.htm>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080222125628.htm>
<http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/34053/title/Solar_panels_t...>
That's all very nice in the theory and inside a lab.  Any mass-application
Installation and operational costs including space requirements.
Ability to store the energy when it is produced for later distribution.
Sigh.  The key fact you should have gotten from all of the citations
above is that cost of solar power is dropping each year due to a variety
of technical improvements, with the end not yet in sight.
We can agree on that.
Post by Bill Z.
It may seem incomprehensible to someone from LA-LA-land, but there are
areas that do not have 365 sunny days a year and where average temperature
dips below freezing point for considerable period of time, sometimes for
months.  Unfortunately, Sun does not usually shine when that happens.
You mean, we should not make use of the vast deserts in the U.S. in any
way, shape, or form?
Why not.  Cost of infrastructure would probably be prohibitive though.
The existing infrastructure will have to be replaced anyway.  As we do
that, we might as well do the right thing.
Post by Bill Z.
Do you know that the peak electric load are correlated with bright sunny
days due to the need to run air conditioners?
Yeah, tell me about it.  It is bright sunshine outside, -10C.
You do know that the peak load occurs during the summer, don't you? I
provided a citation to data providing that.
The main reason for A/C usage around here is to dry the unbearably humid
air, so that one can sleep without repeatedly taking cold showers through
the night.
As I said, LA-LA-Land does not cover the whole Earth, not even the whole
North America.
Perhaps you do not realize that office buildings are generally airconditioned,
and those airconditioners are on during the day, and probably at night as
well - if you are hot and humid, so are the computers, and computers don't
like that.
BTW, you'd look less ridiculous if you avoided terms like "LA-LA-Land".
If it fits, wear it.
It's typical for a LA-LA-Land person to assume that everywhere
around the world the peak demand for electricity generation
occurs in summer, just like in LA-LA-land.
Slight correction: Bill's from "Frisco", a land so demented that it
makes LA look sane and rational by comparison.
Another lie on Stan de SD's part - I don't live in San Francisco but
rather about 50 km (30 miles) away.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Billy, in the English language the word “lie” means
making a statement of fact with a clear knowledge
it is false in order to deceive somebody:
(http://tinyurl.com/dngrsf)
Why would Stan want to deceive anyone about your
domicile? It would make no difference if he had said
you live in Berkeley, Walnut Creek, or Palo Alto, be-
cause there aren’t any pockets of rationality left any-
where around the S.F. Bay :-)
Bill Z.
2009-03-18 21:12:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by kujebak
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Stan de SD
Post by PaulJK
It's typical for a LA-LA-Land person to assume that everywhere
around the world the peak demand for electricity generation
occurs in summer, just like in LA-LA-land.
Slight correction: Bill's from "Frisco", a land so demented that it
makes LA look sane and rational by comparison.
Another lie on Stan de SD's part - I don't live in San Francisco but
rather about 50 km (30 miles) away.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Billy, in the English language the word “lie” means
making a statement of fact with a clear knowledge
(http://tinyurl.com/dngrsf)
Which is just what Stan did - lie. He knows I don't
live in San Francisco and posted it anyway.

BTW, your own URL (a link to dictionary definitions of the
verb) includes:

intransitive verb
1: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2: to create a false or misleading impression

You can argue about Stan de SD's intent (which is usually
to "deceive" anyway) but definition 2 definitely fits.

It seems you can't get anything right. Why is that?
Post by kujebak
Why would Stan want to deceive anyone about your
domicile? It would make no difference if he had said
you live in Berkeley, Walnut Creek, or Palo Alto, be-
cause there aren’t any pockets of rationality left any-
where around the S.F. Bay :-)
Because most individuals don't know where most of those cities are,
and San Francisco's sometimes crazy but endearing politics is not
representative of the rest of the region (aside from maybe Berkeley).
Frank Bures
2009-03-16 14:00:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
No, not "nuts" - the whole point is that the cost for solar cells is
dropping rapidly per year. And you got the economics wrong as well,
as the cost for a coal-fired plant is not just the capital cost of the
plant, but that plus the cost of the coal (including transporting it).
I considered the capital costs only. The cost of coal is included in the
cost of kWh produced.
Post by Bill Z.
Then you have to include maintanence and the lifetime of the facilities
(for both).
I did not considered maintenance as it was irrelevant from the standpoint
of the article quoted.
No, I should not. The originally quoted article that you so conveniently
edited out did not mention any maintenance costs. What it mentioned was
pure cost of P/V cells.
Post by Bill Z.
Well, you should as that is part of the actual cost in both cases.
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
<http://www.photonics.com/Content/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=26247>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090225223324.htm>
<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080222125628.htm>
<http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/34053/title/Solar_panels_to_dye_for>
That's all very nice in the theory and inside a lab. Any mass-application
Installation and operational costs including space requirements.
Ability to store the energy when it is produced for later distribution.
Sigh. The key fact you should have gotten from all of the citations
above is that cost of solar power is dropping each year due to a variety
of technical improvements, with the end not yet in sight.
We can agree on that.
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Frank Bures
It may seem incomprehensible to someone from LA-LA-land, but there are
areas that do not have 365 sunny days a year and where average temperature
dips below freezing point for considerable period of time, sometimes for
months. Unfortunately, Sun does not usually shine when that happens.
You mean, we should not make use of the vast deserts in the U.S. in any
way, shape, or form?
Why not. Cost of infrastructure would probably be prohibitive though.
The existing infrastructure will have to be replaced anyway. As we do
that, we might as well do the right thing.
Oh really? Last time I checked there was no infrastructure in various
deserts. BTW, there are no deserts in Canada or CZ anyway.
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
Do you know that the peak electric load are correlated with bright sunny
days due to the need to run air conditioners?
Yeah, tell me about it. It is bright sunshine outside, -10C.
You do know that the peak load occurs during the summer, don't you? I
provided a citation to data providing that.
Yes, it does. Unfortunately it does not occur when the Sun is shining bright.
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Frank Bures
The main reason for A/C usage around here is to dry the unbearably humid
air, so that one can sleep without repeatedly taking cold showers through
the night.
As I said, LA-LA-Land does not cover the whole Earth, not even the whole
North America.
Perhaps you do not realize that office buildings are generally airconditioned,
and those airconditioners are on during the day, and probably at night as
well - if you are hot and humid, so are the computers, and computers don't
like that.
Oh really? Tell me some more about it. You know, I have not seen a
computer yet. It must me really interesting beast.

(Lidicky to je ale blbec).

I'm done with this topic.

Good Bye
Frank
--
<***@chem.toronto.edu>
Bill Z.
2009-03-16 18:26:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
No, not "nuts" - the whole point is that the cost for solar cells is
dropping rapidly per year. And you got the economics wrong as well,
as the cost for a coal-fired plant is not just the capital cost of the
plant, but that plus the cost of the coal (including transporting it).
I considered the capital costs only. The cost of coal is included in the
cost of kWh produced.
Post by Bill Z.
Then you have to include maintanence and the lifetime of the facilities
(for both).
I did not considered maintenance as it was irrelevant from the standpoint
of the article quoted.
No, I should not. The originally quoted article that you so conveniently
edited out did not mention any maintenance costs. What it mentioned was
pure cost of P/V cells.
No, you should include it - it is part of the costs.
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
Do you know that the peak electric load are correlated with bright sunny
days due to the need to run air conditioners?
Yeah, tell me about it. It is bright sunshine outside, -10C.
You do know that the peak load occurs during the summer, don't you? I
provided a citation to data providing that.
Yes, it does. Unfortunately it does not occur when the Sun is shining bright.
Not relevant (and probably not true when you consider electricity use by
businesses). A fairly efficient way of storing energy for use at night
is to have two reservoirs at different elevations and pump water up during
daylight hours, and then extract the energy you stored using a
hydroelectric generator.
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Frank Bures
The main reason for A/C usage around here is to dry the unbearably humid
air, so that one can sleep without repeatedly taking cold showers through
the night.
As I said, LA-LA-Land does not cover the whole Earth, not even the whole
North America.
Perhaps you do not realize that office buildings are generally
airconditioned, and those airconditioners are on during the day,
and probably at night as well - if you are hot and humid, so are
the computers, and computers don't like that.
Oh really? Tell me some more about it. You know, I have not seen a
computer yet. It must me really interesting beast.
My guess is that you haven't seen the sort of servers that get installed
in data centers, where the heat output and need for cooling is a major
issue. Hint - they do not look like what is on your desktop and they
put out a lot of heat.
Stan de SD
2009-03-17 21:58:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Not relevant (and probably not true when you consider electricity use by
businesses).  A fairly efficient way of storing energy for use at night
is to have two reservoirs at different elevations and pump water up during
daylight hours, and then extract the energy you stored using a
hydroelectric generator.
And the energy comes from where? Somebody needs to remind Billy Zaumen
that perpetual motion schemes have been tried before - I don't expect
the results to be any different this time...
Bill Z.
2009-03-18 01:34:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan de SD
Post by Bill Z.
Not relevant (and probably not true when you consider electricity use by
businesses).  A fairly efficient way of storing energy for use at night
is to have two reservoirs at different elevations and pump water up during
daylight hours, and then extract the energy you stored using a
hydroelectric generator.
And the energy comes from where? Somebody needs to remind Billy Zaumen
that perpetual motion schemes have been tried before - I don't expect
the results to be any different this time...
Someone has to remind the moron Stan de SD that the discussion was
about photovoltaic cells and that pumping water uphill is an efficient
way of storing energy (obtained, obviously, from something else, in
this case sunlight). No perpetual motion scheme is involved.
PaulJK
2009-03-17 07:13:28 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
You do know that the peak load occurs during the summer, don't you? I
provided a citation to data providing that.
Yes, it does. Unfortunately it does not occur when the Sun is shining bright.
Post by Bill Z.
Post by Frank Bures
The main reason for A/C usage around here is to dry the unbearably humid
air, so that one can sleep without repeatedly taking cold showers through
the night.
As I said, LA-LA-Land does not cover the whole Earth, not even the whole
North America.
Perhaps you do not realize that office buildings are generally
airconditioned, and those airconditioners are on during the day, and
probably at night as well - if you are hot and humid, so are the computers,
and computers don't like that.
Oh really? Tell me some more about it. You know, I have not seen a
computer yet. It must me really interesting beast.
(Lidicky to je ale blbec).
I'm done with this topic.
Good Bye
Frank
Myslim, ze vhodna doba zase tohle tenkrat jednou je takhle
prepnout do cestiny. Zvlast na niti, kde tento pindalek obcuje.
Ovsem nekdo mu musi obcas predhodit nejakou kustku,
aby nam vsem predvedl nejaky svuj dalsi tanecek. V kazdem
pripade to absolutne zadnou cenu nema se mu snazit neco
vysvetlovat, nebo ho o necem presvedcovat dokonce.

Ma ucta,
pjk

Seomlouvam zakostrbatou mluvu v predchozim paragrafu,
je to naschval abyto auomatickytranslator nebyl schopen
rozumne prelozit. :-)
Frank Bures
2009-03-17 13:22:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulJK
Seomlouvam zakostrbatou mluvu v predchozim paragrafu,
je to naschval abyto auomatickytranslator nebyl schopen
rozumne prelozit. :-)
To je super, Paule. Opet jsem se neco naucil :-)

Diky
Frank
--
<***@chem.toronto.edu>
PaulJK
2009-03-18 06:46:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Bures
Post by PaulJK
Seomlouvam zakostrbatou mluvu v predchozim paragrafu,
je to naschval abyto auomatickytranslator nebyl schopen
rozumne prelozit. :-)
To je super, Paule. Opet jsem se neco naucil :-)
Diky
Frank
Ted jsem zkusil
http://translate.google.com/translate_t?langpair=en|de

V cestine:
xxxx
Myslim, ze vhodna doba zase tohle tenkrat jednou je takhle
prepnout do cestiny. Zvlast na niti, kde tento pindalek obcuje.
Ovsem nekdo mu musi obcas predhodit nejakou kustku,
aby nam vsem predvedl nejaky svuj dalsi tanecek. V kazdem
pripade to absolutne zadnou cenu nema se mu snazit neco
vysvetlovat, nebo ho o necem presvedcovat dokonce.
Ma ucta,
pjk
Seomlouvam zakostrbatou mluvu v predchozim paragrafu,
je to naschval abyto auomatickytranslator nebyl schopen
rozumne prelozit.
xxxx


V anglictine prelozene translatorem:
xxxxx
I think a good time once again this time is about
switch into English. Separately on niti where this pindalek obcuje.
But someone must sometimes predhodit some ossicle,
that we all showed one of your next dance. In any
case to absolutely no cost are not something to aim
explain, or something even convince.
Respect Ma,
pjk
Seomlouvam zakostrbatou spoken in the previous section,
it's purpose has not been able abyto auomatickytranslator
quite translate.
xxxxx


Prvni veta se mi tak moc nepodarila. Ten neprirozeny slovosled
je nakonec srozumitelnejsi v anglictine. :-)))

Chybejici diakritika tomu nekdy pomuze, treba vidim, ze
"ma" to neprelozi, ale "má" to zvladne. Vidim ale, ze nejjednodussi
a nejrychlejsi je nemenit slova a slovosled ale obcas vynechat
mezery mezi klicovymi slovy. Na tech slovech se Translator
zhrouti a necha je tak jak jsou v originale. Hadam, ze babelfish
a jine prekladatelske programy by asi udelaly neco podobneho.

pjk
Stan R
2009-03-18 09:18:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulJK
Post by Frank Bures
Post by PaulJK
Seomlouvam zakostrbatou mluvu v predchozim paragrafu,
je to naschval abyto auomatickytranslator nebyl schopen
rozumne prelozit. :-)
To je super, Paule. Opet jsem se neco naucil :-)
Diky
Frank
Ted jsem zkusil
http://translate.google.com/translate_t?langpair=en|de
xxxx
Myslim, ze vhodna doba zase tohle tenkrat jednou je takhle
prepnout do cestiny. Zvlast na niti, kde tento pindalek obcuje.
Ovsem nekdo mu musi obcas predhodit nejakou kustku,
aby nam vsem predvedl nejaky svuj dalsi tanecek. V kazdem
pripade to absolutne zadnou cenu nema se mu snazit neco
vysvetlovat, nebo ho o necem presvedcovat dokonce.
Ma ucta,
pjk
Seomlouvam zakostrbatou mluvu v predchozim paragrafu,
je to naschval abyto auomatickytranslator nebyl schopen
rozumne prelozit.
xxxx
xxxxx
I think a good time once again this time is about
switch into English. Separately on niti where this pindalek obcuje.
But someone must sometimes predhodit some ossicle,
that we all showed one of your next dance. In any
case to absolutely no cost are not something to aim
explain, or something even convince.
Respect Ma,
pjk
Seomlouvam zakostrbatou spoken in the previous section,
it's purpose has not been able abyto auomatickytranslator
quite translate.
xxxxx
Prvni veta se mi tak moc nepodarila. Ten neprirozeny slovosled
je nakonec srozumitelnejsi v anglictine. :-)))
Chybejici diakritika tomu nekdy pomuze, treba vidim, ze
"ma" to neprelozi, ale "má" to zvladne. Vidim ale, ze nejjednodussi
a nejrychlejsi je nemenit slova a slovosled ale obcas vynechat
mezery mezi klicovymi slovy. Na tech slovech se Translator
zhrouti a necha je tak jak jsou v originale. Hadam, ze babelfish
a jine prekladatelske programy by asi udelaly neco podobneho.
Musi se tady ale polozit otazka: Proc s takovym pitomcem vubec v prve
rade diskutovat?

To uz pak ani nestoji za namahu davat dohromady takovy zajimavy lamany
cestin, protoze on zjevne nechape nic moc i kdyz mu to napisete v
anglictine!

Cist ale nektere ty jeho vyplody je docela sranda. Zvlast jsem se
pobavil nad tim, ze Frank Bures urcite jeste nevidel opravdovy
computer...! ;-)
Frank Bures
2009-03-17 13:24:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulJK
Myslim, ze vhodna doba zase tohle tenkrat jednou je takhle
prepnout do cestiny. Zvlast na niti, kde tento pindalek obcuje.
Ovsem nekdo mu musi obcas predhodit nejakou kustku,
aby nam vsem predvedl nejaky svuj dalsi tanecek. V kazdem
pripade to absolutne zadnou cenu nema se mu snazit neco
vysvetlovat, nebo ho o necem presvedcovat dokonce.
Mozna, ze tohle by se mu libilo, pokud ma na to aby to byl schopen mentalen
uchopit:

Professor Sean Shaheen from University of Denver will visit the Department
of Chemistry on Friday Mar 20. He will be giving a colloquium entitled
“Device Physics and Architectures for Organic Photovoltaics” at 10:00am in
the Davenport Seminar Rooms. You are more welcome to attend.

----------------------------------------------------
ABSTRACT
Professor Sean Shaheen
University of Denver

Device Physics and Architectures for Organic Photovoltaics

Organic photovoltaics, or “plastic solar cells”, have evolved over the last
several decades from a laboratory curiosity to now being on the verge of
commercial production. This low cost route to solar energy harvesting is
being aggressively pursued in university, national and industrial
laboratories around the world in order to boost efficiencies, diminish
degradation mechanisms, and up-scale the production processes.

Many different flavors of organic and hybrid solar cells exist now today.
In this talk, I will focus the discussion largely on the bulk
heterojunction device based on blends of solution processable donors and
acceptors. We will discuss fundamental aspects of the device physics,
including the generation of stable, free carriers following exciton
dissociation and how molecular morphology and defects affect charge
transport and recombination. We will also touch upon molecular design and
tuning of the band gap of the absorber in order to better overlap with the
solar spectrum. Lastly, we will discuss potential pathways to reaching
higher efficiencies in the devices.

Cheers
Frank
--
<***@chem.toronto.edu>
Bill Z.
2009-03-17 17:40:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulJK
Post by Frank Bures
Post by Bill Z.
Perhaps you do not realize that office buildings are generally
airconditioned, and those airconditioners are on during the day, and
probably at night as well - if you are hot and humid, so are the computers,
and computers don't like that.
Oh really? Tell me some more about it. You know, I have not seen a
computer yet. It must me really interesting beast.
(Lidicky to je ale blbec).
I'm done with this topic.
Good Bye
Frank
Myslim, ze vhodna doba zase tohle tenkrat jednou je takhle
prepnout do cestiny. Zvlast na niti, kde tento pindalek obcuje.
Ovsem nekdo mu musi obcas predhodit nejakou kustku,
aby nam vsem predvedl nejaky svuj dalsi tanecek. V kazdem
pripade to absolutne zadnou cenu nema se mu snazit neco
vysvetlovat, nebo ho o necem presvedcovat dokonce.
Ma ucta,
pjk
<snip> He's now reduced to replying to himself, figuring that he
can switch languages to avoid getting a reply. What a twirp
(he must realize that he's never seen a server room packed to
the gills with rack-mounted equipment).
Justin Case
2009-03-17 19:04:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
<snip> He's now reduced to replying to himself, figuring that he
can switch languages to avoid getting a reply. What a twirp
(he must realize that he's never seen a server room packed to
the gills with rack-mounted equipment).
Hmmmm, twirp to twirp.



--
Bill Z.
2009-03-17 21:36:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin Case
Post by Bill Z.
<snip> He's now reduced to replying to himself, figuring that he
can switch languages to avoid getting a reply. What a twirp
(he must realize that he's never seen a server room packed to
the gills with rack-mounted equipment).
Hmmmm, twirp to twirp.
Another blathering usenet moron, with nothing useful to say.
Justin Case
2009-03-18 01:25:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Z.
Another blathering usenet moron, with nothing useful to say.
You've been saying nothing useful since you've been posting to the
usenet. If brains were dynamite, you wouldn't have enough to blow your
nose.

--
Bill Z.
2009-03-18 01:49:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin Case
Post by Bill Z.
Another blathering usenet moron, with nothing useful to say.
You've been saying nothing useful since you've been posting to the
usenet. If brains were dynamite, you wouldn't have enough to blow your
nose.
More ranting from a right-wing loon.
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