Discussion:
Virtually the Entire Dem-Controlled Congress Supports Israel's War Crimes in Gaza
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s***@zunes.not
2009-01-14 17:54:37 UTC
Permalink
Virtually the Entire Dem-Controlled Congress Supports Israel's War
Crimes in Gaza

By Professor Stephen Zunes

Congressional leaders are advancing a radical view of international
law that would allow powerful countries to get away with war crimes.

In a direct challenge to the credibility of Amnesty International,
Human Rights Watch, the International Red Cross and other reputable
humanitarian organizations, an overwhelming bipartisan majority in
both houses of Congress has gone on record supporting President George
W. Bush's position that the Israeli armed forces bear no
responsibility for the large and growing numbers of civilian
casualties from their assault on the Gaza Strip.

As of this writing, at least 400 civilians have been killed by Israeli
forces, primarily using U.S.-supplied weaponry.

Shattering hopes that an expanded Democratic congressional majority
and a new Democratic administration might lead to a more moderate
foreign policy, the resolutions put forward an extreme
reinterpretation of international humanitarian law, apparently
designed to exonerate nations with superior firepower from any
liability for inflicting large-scale civilian casualties.

The Senate resolution, primarily written and sponsored by Senate
Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., passed the Senate by unanimous
consent on a voice vote. Among the 33 co-sponsors were such otherwise
liberal Democratic senators as Barbara Boxer, Calif,; Richard Durbin,
Ill,; Carl Levin, Mich.; Sherrod Brown, Ohio; Barbara Mikulski, Md.;
and 2004 presidential nominee John Kerry, Mass.

An even stronger House resolution, sponsored by House Speaker Nancy
Pelosi, D-Calif., passed the House by a lopsided 390-5 roll call vote
(with 22 members voting "present"). Both resolutions placed the blame
for the death and destruction exclusively on the Palestinian side and
are being widely interpreted as a rebuke to the international human
rights community and the United Nations, which have cited both Hamas
and the Israeli government for war crimes.

The resolutions favorably quote Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice
extensively, as well as Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, regarding
responsibility for civilian deaths and for the causes of the conflict.
No one else is cited in the resolutions, indicating who Pelosi, Reid
and the resolutions' other sponsors see as the authoritative sources
of information on international humanitarian law in the region.

Although some analysts are already referring to the Gaza war as "a
final and eloquent testimony to the complete failure of the
neoconservative movement in United States foreign policy," Pelosi,
Reid and virtually the entire Democratic membership of Congress have
decided to ally themselves with this failed ideology of the outgoing
Bush administration rather than blaze a new trail of moderation and
common sense in anticipation of new leadership in the White House.
Indeed, Pelosi's and Reid's strategy in pushing through these
resolutions may have been part of an attempt to box in Obama -- to
force him to continue Bush's hard-right foreign policy. That is, a
policy in which, in the name of the "war on terror," fundamental
principles of international law are deemed to be expendable.

To the Right of Bush

Some of the language in the resolution put forward by Pelosi, Reid and
their colleagues even place the Democratic Party to the right of the
Bush administration. For example, while the Jan. 8 U.N. Security
Council resolution -- which received the endorsement of Rice and other
administration officials -- condemns "all acts of violence and terror
directed against civilians," the congressional resolution only
condemns the violence and terror of Hamas.

Indeed, just as the Security Council unanimously passed its resolution
stressing "the urgency of and calls for an immediate, durable and
fully respected cease-fire, leading to the full withdrawal of Israeli
forces from Gaza," Congress immediately weighed in with language
apparently designed to prevent one. The Senate and House resolutions
called for a cease-fire only on the condition that it "prevents Hamas
from retaining or rebuilding the capability to launch rockets and
mortars against Israel." Given that most of these rockets and mortars
are of a rather crude design that can be made in local machine shops
from scrap metal and other easily obtainable materials, and is
therefore the kind of capability that can not really be completely
eliminated, it appears that this clause would make a cease-fire
impossible.

Emboldened by this strong bipartisan support from the legislative
branch of its most important ally, Israel rejected the U.N.'s terms
for a cease-fire.

Also on Jan. 8, Israeli forces killed two U.N. humanitarian aid
workers as they were attempting to provide relief supplies, and the
International Red Cross released a strongly worded statement noting
that the Israeli military had "failed to meet its obligation under
international humanitarian law to care for and evacuate the wounded."
The Nobel Prize-winning humanitarian group Doctors Without Borders
noted that "Palestinian humanitarian aid and health workers have been
killed, and hospitals and ambulances have been bombed."

Congress, however, went on record in the resolutions praising Israel
for having "facilitated humanitarian aid to Gaza."

Both resolutions "hold Hamas responsible for breaking the cease-fire,"
despite the fact that there had been scores of minor violations during
the months of the cease-fire by both sides and that Israel had
launched a major incursion into the Gaza Strip on Nov. 4, 2008,
assassinating several Hamas leaders, an action the Israeli press
speculated was designed to provoke Hamas into not renewing the
cease-fire when it expired the following month. Israel then tightened
its siege on Nov. 5, banning even humanitarian aid from coming
through. Hamas appeared willing to renew the cease-fire in return for
Israel renouncing further such incursions and lifting the siege, but
Israel refused.

While these Israeli provocations do not justify Hamas' failure to
renew the cease-fire and certainly not Hamas' decision to once again
begin firing rockets into civilian-populated areas of Israel -- which
is a war crime -- the language of the resolutions gives a very
misleading understanding of the events leading up to the war.
Ironically, despite blaming Hamas exclusively for not renewing the
cease-fire, the resolutions also claim that returning to the terms of
that cease-fire agreement "is unacceptable."

Yet these were by no means the most egregious misrepresentations in
these Democratic-led congressional initiatives.

Redefining International Humanitarian Law

In perhaps the most dangerous clause of the resolution, the House
called "on all nations … to condemn Hamas for deliberately embedding
its fighters, leaders and weapons in private homes, schools, mosques,
hospitals and otherwise using Palestinian civilians as human shields."

According to international humanitarian law, however, "human shields"
require the deliberate use of civilians as a deterrent to avoid attack
on one's troops or military objects. Despite repeated calls to the
offices of the resolutions' principal Democratic sponsors, not one of
them could provide a single example of this actually occurring during
the current wave of fighting. Similar accusations in a 2006 resolution
supported by Pelosi, Reid and other Democratic leaders during the five
weeks of devastating Israeli attacks on Lebanon that summer were later
systematically rebuked in a detailed and meticulously researched
249-page report by Human Rights Watch. (See my article "The Democrats
and the "Human Shields" Myth").

In this resolution, the Democrats appear to be attempting to redefine
just what constitutes human shields. Despite this desperate effort to
rationalize the large-scale killing of Palestinian civilians by
Israeli forces, the fact that a Hamas leader lives in his own private
home, attends a neighborhood mosque and seeks admittance in a local
hospital does not constitute the use of human shields. Indeed, the
vast majority of leaders of most governments and political parties
live in private homes in civilian neighborhoods, go to local houses of
worship and check in to hospitals when sick or injured, along with
ordinary civilians. Furthermore, given that the armed wing of Hamas is
a militia rather than a standing army, virtually all of their fighters
live in private homes and go to neighborhood mosques and local
hospitals, as well.

In short, Pelosi and other congressional leaders appear to be
advancing a radical and dangerous reinterpretation of international
humanitarian law that would allow virtually any country with superior
air power or long-range artillery to get away with war crimes.

Hamas is certainly guilty of less-severe violations of international
humanitarian law, such as not taking all necessary steps it should to
prevent civilian casualties when it positions fighters and armaments
too close to concentrations of civilians. However, this is not the
same thing as deliberately using civilians as shields. And, as Human
Rights Watch noted, even the presence of armed personnel and weapons
near civilian areas "does not release Israel from its obligations to
take all feasible precautions to minimize harm to civilians and
civilian property during military operations." Furthermore, the nature
of urban warfare, particularly in a territory as densely populated as
the Gaza Strip, makes the proximity of retreating fighters and their
equipment to civilians unavoidable in many cases.

It is also important to note that, even if Hamas were using human
shields in the legal definition of the term, it still does not absolve
Israel from its obligation to avoid civilian casualties. Amnesty
International has noted that the Geneva Conventions make it clear that
even if one side is shielding itself behind civilians, such a
violation "shall not release the Parties to the conflict from their
legal obligations with respect to the civilian population and
civilians." Despite claims by some members of Congress to the
contrary, Israel's Jan. 6 attack on the U.N. school in Gaza, which
killed more than 40 civilians, was still a war crime, even if Israeli
forces were being fired upon from the vicinity. (The argument by those
defending this atrocity is comparable to claiming that it would be
legitimate for a SWAT team, in order to kill some bank robbers
shooting at them, to also kill the bank employees and customers being
held hostage since the bad guys were using "human shields.")

Rewriting the U.N. Charter – and the Magna Carta

Pelosi's resolution not only undermines international humanitarian
law, it seeks to resurrect a fallacy that has been rejected by Western
legal thought since the Magna Carta. In an effort to absolve Israel
for the hundreds of civilian casualties it has inflicted with
U.S.-supplied weaponry, the House resolution "calls on all nations …
to lay blame both for the breaking of the calm and for subsequent
civilian casualties in Gaza precisely where blame belongs, that is, on
Hamas."

In reality, however wrong -- morally, legally and politically --
Hamas' decision to not renew the cease-fire, it simply does not
absolve Israel of its responsibility under international humanitarian
law for the far greater civilian deaths its armed forces have
inflicted upon the Palestinians in Gaza. Indeed, it has long been a
principle of Western jurisprudence that someone who is the proximate
cause of a crime cannot claim innocence simply because of the
influence of another party. By refuting this nearly 800-year old legal
principle, this becomes, literally, a reactionary piece of
legislation.

In support of the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip, the House also
goes on record citing the Israeli invasion as part of Israel's "right
to act in self-defense to protect its citizens against Hamas'
unceasing aggression, as enshrined in the United Nations Charter." In
reality, the U.N. Charter explicitly prohibits nations going to war
unless they "first of all, seek a solution by negotiation, enquiry,
mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, resort to
regional agencies or arrangements, or other peaceful means of their
own choice." Israel -- with strong bipartisan U.S. support -- has
refused to even meet with Hamas. Furthermore, while Article 51 does
allow countries the right to resist an armed attack, it does not grant
any nation the right to engage in such massive and disproportionate
warfare against densely packed cities and refugee camps.

Not a Product of AIPAC

It appears that these two resolutions, unlike some similar measures in
recent years, were not drafted by the American Israel Public Affairs
Committee AIPAC, the influential "pro-Israel" lobby. Nor were they
primarily the initiative of right-wing Republican House leaders like
Ohio Rep. John Boehner, or his predecessor Texas Rep. Tom DeLay, as
were previous resolutions related to the Israel-Palestinian conflict.
The lack of Democratic input on such resolutions has been used on a
number of occasions in the past by Democratic staff members on Capitol
Hill in an effort to excuse congressional Democrats for voting in
favor of such initiatives, arguing that they ended up voting for a
particular resolution in order to "show support for Israel," but did
not necessarily approve of the specific wording of the resolution.

They have no such excuses this time, however, since these resolutions
came primarily out of the offices of Pelosi, Reid, and House Foreign
Relations Committee Chairman Howard Berman, D-Calif.

There appears to be little popular support for such an unqualified
endorsement of Israeli war-making, however, with public opinion --
particularly among Democrats -- largely opposed to the assault on
Gaza. And the American Jewish community has never seen so much dissent
over Washington's support for Israel's militaristic and self-defeating
policies toward the Palestinians. Despite the myth that it is somehow
"political suicide" to oppose such resolutions, every Democrat who
failed to vote for a similar 2006 House resolution supporting Israel's
attacks on Lebanon and the Gaza Strip was re-elected that November by
a bigger margin than they were two years earlier. Furthermore,
virtually all of the principal authors and sponsors of this year's
resolutions come from safe districts.

One of major reasons these Democrats support such right-wing
legislation is not because AIPAC is all-powerful, but because there is
so little pressure in the other direction to counter it. For example,
MoveOn, Democracy for America, Council for a Livable World, and other
"progressive" political organizations that endorse candidates for
national office continue to back Democrats who support dangerous
militaristic policies in the Middle East. (Ironically, if Democrats
Nita Lowey, N.Y.; Robert Wexler, Fla;, John Hall, N.Y.; Henry Waxman,
D-Calif.; Sheila Jackson-Lee, Texas; Carolyn Maloney, N.Y.; Edward
Markey, Mass.; and other co-sponsors of the House bill were running
for the Israeli Knesset instead of the U.S. House of Representatives,
their positions on human rights and international law in regard to the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict would put them on that legislature's
right wing.)

Since the next congressional election is nearly two years away, it is
too early to tell whether the growing opposition within the
progressive community to U.S. support for the large-scale Israeli
attacks against Palestinian civilians will be sufficient to deny those
who defend Israeli war crimes the endorsements of progressive groups
in the 2010 campaign. Given that like-minded organizations in previous
decades denied their support for Democratic hawks who defended human
rights abuses by U.S.-backed governments in Central America, Southeast
Asia, Southern Africa and other conflict regions, it should be
possible.

The problem is that there is still a fair amount of anti-Arab racism,
which seems to take the perspective that the human rights of
Palestinians somehow don't count. It's telling, for example, that
Pelosi, the chief sponsor of the House resolution, has been praised by
progressive publications for her "consistent support for human
rights." Similarly, the late Foreign Relations Committee chairman,
Rep. Tom Lantos, D-Calif., also an outspoken defender of Israeli human
rights abuses, was repeatedly re-elected to chair the ironically named
congressional Human Rights Caucus and was eulogized in a number of
progressive periodicals following his death last year as Congress'
"leading defender of human rights." (See my article Lantos' Tarnished
Legacy.)

Israel would not be able to get away with its ongoing attacks against
Palestinian civilians were it not for the support of the Bush
administration. The Bush administration would not be able to get away
with supporting these atrocities were it not being backed by the
Democratic-controlled Congress, including many of its otherwise more
liberal members. And the overwhelming support by congressional
Democrats of Bush's stance would not be possible were it not for the
continued acquiescence of the progressive community to these
Democrats' embrace of his right-wing militaristic agenda in the
Mideast.

Peace between Israel and Palestine may not be possible until
progressive activists stop seeing members of Congress who support such
resolutions as powerless victims of some mythical cabal of wealthy
Jews and instead hold them just as accountable for their actions as
those who took comparable right-wing positions regarding Central
America or East Timor in previous years, or those who embrace such
policies regarding Iraq and Iran today. Instead of protesting in front
of Israeli consulates, demonstrators will need to focus their protests
more on congressional offices, as well as engage in more disruptive
tactics, such as sit-ins and other forms of nonviolent direct action.
It may require withholding campaign contributions, supporting
progressive challengers in primary races and threatening to back Green
or other third-party challengers in the general election.

There are signs this may be possible. The past couple of weeks have
witnessed an unprecedented outpouring of concern on the plight of the
Palestinians of the Gaza Strip. In addition, while the corporate media
is as biased in support of U.S. client states as ever, much of the
widely read independent news/opinion Web sites -- which are
increasingly important in shaping public opinion -- have had a fair
amount of critical coverage. This could be significant in that the
more the conflict is addressed in terms of human rights and
international law, and the less it is addressed in terms of Israel
versus Palestine, the less likely the debate will be dominated by
those with rigid ideological agendas.

This should also help make it easier to recognize how U.S. policy is
not just bad for the Palestinians, but ultimately bad for Israel as
well, as Israeli militarism goaded on by U.S. politicians from Bush to
Pelosi has left the Jewish state increasingly isolated in the world
and has greatly contributed to the growing ranks of Islamic
extremists, such as those drawn to Hamas.

And, should Barack Obama -- who has refused to join the chorus of
other Democratic leaders in backing the Israeli invasion -- decide as
president to finally apply some "tough love" towards Israel in the
face of a hostile Congress, he is going to need the American people to
back him up.
Curt
2009-01-14 20:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@zunes.not
Virtually the Entire Dem-Controlled Congress Supports Israel's War
Crimes in Gaza
I claim no Middle East expertise. But didn't Hamas start shooting
rockets into Israel? Isn't that what started this latest iteration?
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.

I'm not fine with cluster bombs in town, though. Or shooting at UN
relief vehicles. WTF is up with that?

Curt
g***@amusenet.com
2009-01-14 22:54:16 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
Post by s***@zunes.not
Virtually the Entire Dem-Controlled Congress Supports Israel's War
Crimes in Gaza
I claim no Middle East expertise. But didn't Hamas start shooting
rockets into Israel?
Since Hamas has no air force or long range artillery, and Israel
decided to tighten the blockade when they were supposed to loosen it,
sending Israel a protest note or a press release would probably not
get their attention.
Post by Curt
Isn't that what started this latest iteration?
Nah - there is no Start to anything in the Middle East. It's just a
continuation of what's been going on.
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK. The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm. They
are not.
Post by Curt
I'm not fine with cluster bombs in town, though. Or shooting at UN
relief vehicles. WTF is up with that?
Some of it's intentional, and some is the Fog of War.

Israel always has chosen to shoot when something is in the way of the
IDF. The US is fully aware of how that happens and it has happened
more than just once.
lein
2009-01-15 05:58:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
Post by s***@zunes.not
Virtually the Entire Dem-Controlled Congress Supports Israel's War
Crimes in Gaza
I claim no Middle East expertise. But didn't Hamas start shooting
rockets into Israel?
Since Hamas has no air force or long range artillery, and Israel
decided to tighten the blockade when they were supposed to loosen it,
sending Israel a protest note or a press release would probably not
get their attention.
A blockade to prevent weapons dumbass. Besides, aren't you all about
equal proportions? So killing jews == not getting a rocket motor on
time.
Post by g***@amusenet.com
Post by Curt
Isn't that what started this latest iteration?
Nah - there is no Start to anything in the Middle East.  It's just a
continuation of what's been going on.
Nope, Hamas failed to honor a cease fire and fails to recognize
Israel.
Post by g***@amusenet.com
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK.  The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm.  They
are not.
So proportional harm would mean they should intentionally target
civilians like Hamas does.
Post by g***@amusenet.com
Post by Curt
I'm not fine with cluster bombs in town, though. Or shooting at UN
relief vehicles. WTF is up with that?
Some of it's intentional, and some is the Fog of War.
And some UN vehicles are commandeered and used for troop transports.
Post by g***@amusenet.com
Israel always has chosen to shoot when something is in the way of the
IDF.  The US is fully aware of how that happens and it has happened
more than just once.
After a complementary phone call, oh, tell Curt what happens from
1pm-4pm each day in Gaza Don.
g***@amusenet.com
2009-01-15 16:55:04 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:58:12 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
Post by s***@zunes.not
Virtually the Entire Dem-Controlled Congress Supports Israel's War
Crimes in Gaza
I claim no Middle East expertise. But didn't Hamas start shooting
rockets into Israel?
Since Hamas has no air force or long range artillery, and Israel
decided to tighten the blockade when they were supposed to loosen it,
sending Israel a protest note or a press release would probably not
get their attention.
A blockade to prevent weapons dumbass.
Heh - the blockade was far more wide-ranging than only that.
Post by lein
Besides, aren't you all about equal proportions?
The Talmud is, far more than I. And if a nation that Claims to be
living by some religious Law doesn't obey its own, what are we to
conclude from that?
Post by lein
So killing jews == not getting a rocket motor on
time.
Thus far, few have been killed by rockets. Last time I checked the
kill ratio it had fallen to somewhere Under the 100:1 ratio it had
been earlier.
Post by lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
Post by Curt
Isn't that what started this latest iteration?
Nah - there is no Start to anything in the Middle East.  It's just a
continuation of what's been going on.
Nope, Hamas failed to honor a cease fire and fails to recognize
Israel.
Ibid, as above.
Post by lein
So proportional harm would mean they should intentionally target
civilians like Hamas does.
They do. Then they Claim that they don't, and you believe them.
Post by lein
And some UN vehicles are commandeered and used for troop transports.
Certainly every single one that's shot at is Claimed to be used that
way, but the Facts belie the story.
Lobby Dosser
2009-01-16 03:09:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:58:12 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
Post by s***@zunes.not
Virtually the Entire Dem-Controlled Congress Supports Israel's War
Crimes in Gaza
I claim no Middle East expertise. But didn't Hamas start shooting
rockets into Israel?
Since Hamas has no air force or long range artillery, and Israel
decided to tighten the blockade when they were supposed to loosen it,
sending Israel a protest note or a press release would probably not
get their attention.
A blockade to prevent weapons dumbass.
Heh - the blockade was far more wide-ranging than only that.
No it wasn't. They have a border with Egypt. Co-religionists, IIRC.
g***@amusenet.com
2009-01-16 16:10:10 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:09:46 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:58:12 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
Post by s***@zunes.not
Virtually the Entire Dem-Controlled Congress Supports Israel's War
Crimes in Gaza
I claim no Middle East expertise. But didn't Hamas start shooting
rockets into Israel?
Since Hamas has no air force or long range artillery, and Israel
decided to tighten the blockade when they were supposed to loosen it,
sending Israel a protest note or a press release would probably not
get their attention.
A blockade to prevent weapons dumbass.
Heh - the blockade was far more wide-ranging than only that.
No it wasn't....
Yeah -- it was. It's available on the public record. You tend to
avoid doing searches on such stuff, but you can find it if you take
the time to look.
Lobby Dosser
2009-01-17 05:29:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:09:46 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:58:12 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
Post by s***@zunes.not
Virtually the Entire Dem-Controlled Congress Supports Israel's War
Crimes in Gaza
I claim no Middle East expertise. But didn't Hamas start shooting
rockets into Israel?
Since Hamas has no air force or long range artillery, and Israel
decided to tighten the blockade when they were supposed to loosen it,
sending Israel a protest note or a press release would probably not
get their attention.
A blockade to prevent weapons dumbass.
Heh - the blockade was far more wide-ranging than only that.
No it wasn't....
Yeah -- it was. It's available on the public record. You tend to
avoid doing searches on such stuff, but you can find it if you take
the time to look.
No it wasn't. They have a border with Egypt. Co-religionists, IIRC.
g***@amusenet.com
2009-01-15 18:57:26 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:12:14 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK.  The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm.  They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements
Someone who does not comprehend the discussion isn't expected to
understand how the doctrine is applied.
... and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual).
That doesn't matter, if you follow the discussion.
But if you want to
play, the very same Talmud teaches "if someone comes to kill you, rise
up to kill him first."
But alas -- you misread the statement.

http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Matters_of_Life_and_Death.asp

The doctrine of proportional response remains. It further requires
that you Know the motive of the One. Which leaves out children,
families and non-combatants, generally.

It does not provide for pre-emptive warfare.

The proportional response doctrine, however, can be and oftimes is
corrupted for internal political purposes, as witness this discussion
with Benjamin Netanyahu - who is running for Israel's Prime Minister.

http://jpundit.typepad.com/jci/2008/12/a-proportionate-response-would-be-to-eliminate-hamas.html

This sort of discussion is not your strong suit, lein. I suggest
better preparation.
Lobby Dosser
2009-01-16 03:12:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:12:14 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK. The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm. They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements
Someone who does not comprehend the discussion isn't expected to
understand how the doctrine is applied.
... and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual).
That doesn't matter, if you follow the discussion.
But if you want to
play, the very same Talmud teaches "if someone comes to kill you, rise
up to kill him first."
But alas -- you misread the statement.
http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Matters_of_Life_and_Death.asp
The doctrine of proportional response remains. It further requires
that you Know the motive of the One. Which leaves out children,
families and non-combatants, generally.
It does not provide for pre-emptive warfare.
The proportional response doctrine, however, can be and oftimes is
corrupted for internal political purposes, as witness this discussion
with Benjamin Netanyahu - who is running for Israel's Prime Minister.
http://jpundit.typepad.com/jci/2008/12/a-proportionate-response-would-be-to-eliminate-hamas.html
This sort of discussion is not your strong suit, lein. I suggest
better preparation.
You're the one getting hammered.

NO WONDER YOU KEEP LOSING ELECTIONS!!!

You don't Prepare!
g***@amusenet.com
2009-01-16 16:10:10 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:12:28 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
The proportional response doctrine, however, can be and oftimes is
corrupted for internal political purposes, as witness this discussion
with Benjamin Netanyahu - who is running for Israel's Prime Minister.
http://jpundit.typepad.com/jci/2008/12/a-proportionate-response-would-be-to-eliminate-hamas.html
This sort of discussion is not your strong suit, lein. I suggest
better preparation.
You're the one getting hammered.
It's that Republican thing, once again. When you're clearly Wrong,
jump up and down and shout that you are Right.

Some few fools will believe you.
Lobby Dosser
2009-01-17 05:29:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:12:28 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
The proportional response doctrine, however, can be and oftimes is
corrupted for internal political purposes, as witness this discussion
with Benjamin Netanyahu - who is running for Israel's Prime Minister.
http://jpundit.typepad.com/jci/2008/12/a-proportionate-response-would-be-to-eliminate-hamas.html
This sort of discussion is not your strong suit, lein. I suggest
better preparation.
You're the one getting hammered.
It's that Republican thing, once again. When you're clearly Wrong,
jump up and down and shout that you are Right.
Some few fools will believe you.
NO WONDER YOU KEEP LOSING ELECTIONS!!
lein
2009-01-16 04:00:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:12:14 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK.  The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm.  They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements
Someone who does not comprehend the discussion isn't expected to
understand how the doctrine is applied.
... and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual).
That doesn't matter, if you follow the discussion.
Yes it does matter, else Christian FDR should have turned the other
cheek when the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor.
Post by g***@amusenet.com
But if you want to
play, the very same Talmud teaches "if someone comes to kill you, rise
up to kill him first."
But alas -- you misread the statement.
http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Matters_of_Life_and_Death.asp
Nope, the attacks against Israel are real and enter her territory.
Post by g***@amusenet.com
The doctrine of proportional response remains.  It further requires
that you Know the motive of the One.  Which leaves out children,
families and non-combatants, generally.
Which is exactly why Israel goes out of it's way not to kill them,
despite Hama's attempt to round them up and place them as human
shields.
Post by g***@amusenet.com
It does not provide for pre-emptive warfare.
But does for self defense.
Post by g***@amusenet.com
The proportional response doctrine, however, can be and oftimes is
corrupted for internal political purposes, as witness this discussion
with Benjamin Netanyahu - who is running for Israel's Prime Minister.
http://jpundit.typepad.com/jci/2008/12/a-proportionate-response-would...
This sort of discussion is not your strong suit, lein.  I suggest
better preparation.
I'm very well prepared.

Let's talk about proportion when the number of Israel hating Arabs is
many times Arab hating Israel. Clearly you are not about to suggest
that their exchanges be proportional, assuring the destruction of
Israel.
g***@amusenet.com
2009-01-16 16:10:10 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:00:08 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:12:14 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK.  The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm.  They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements
Someone who does not comprehend the discussion isn't expected to
understand how the doctrine is applied.
... and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual).
That doesn't matter, if you follow the discussion.
Yes it does matter, else Christian FDR should have turned the other
cheek when the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor.
As has been noted previously, all that superstition goes out the door
when someone claims to be in a War - as clearly FDR was.

Save for PR purposes, because it's necessary to claim that some god is
on Your side.

And to hire chaplains to comfort the dying.
Lobby Dosser
2009-01-17 05:31:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:00:08 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:12:14 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK. The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm. They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements
Someone who does not comprehend the discussion isn't expected to
understand how the doctrine is applied.
... and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual).
That doesn't matter, if you follow the discussion.
Yes it does matter, else Christian FDR should have turned the other
cheek when the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor.
As has been noted previously, all that superstition goes out the door
when someone claims to be in a War - as clearly FDR was.
IOW, all your other statements were BULLSHIT. Somehow I'm not surprised.
Curt
2009-01-17 00:47:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:12:14 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK. The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm. They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements
Someone who does not comprehend the discussion isn't expected to
understand how the doctrine is applied.
... and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual).
That doesn't matter, if you follow the discussion.
Yes it does matter, else Christian FDR should have turned the other
cheek when the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor.
"Japs"?

No matter. We're not a Christian country. We're a secular country --
founded that way on purpose. We were more aggressively secular back
then, too.

Curt
Curt
2009-01-17 16:52:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:12:14 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK.  The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm.  They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements
Someone who does not comprehend the discussion isn't expected to
understand how the doctrine is applied.
... and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual).
That doesn't matter, if you follow the discussion.
Yes it does matter, else Christian FDR should have turned the other
cheek when the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor.
"Japs"?
No matter. We're not a Christian country. We're a secular country --
founded that way on purpose.
http://www.alliance4lifemin.org/articles.php?id=23
America's Christian Heritage - The Revolution and Beyond
by Alliance for Life Ministries
Most people don't realize what this nation was like at its beginning.
Even as late as 1776 – 150 years after a Christian group we refer to as
the Pilgrims moved their church to America, we see the population of our
country as: 98 percent Protestant Christians, 1.8 percent Catholic
Christians, and .2 of 1 percent Jewish. That means that 99.8% of the
people in America in 1776 professed to be Christians.
Sure. Shoot, even the Deists did. Means nothing. The FFs were deeply
suspicious of organized religion -- and they founded a secular
government that was designed to not support nor hinder religious
activity. Which, BTW, was supposed to be kept out of gummint.
Benjamin Franklin, who signed the Declaration and was often identified
as a deist in his younger years, delivered his most famous speech on
June 28, 1787, at the age of eighty-one. He said, "I have lived, sir, a
long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of
this truth: that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow
cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an
empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the
Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain
that build it."
They all spoke that way. Doesn't mean they meant it. Can you imagine
Ben Franklin talking with, say, Pat Robertson today?

Curt
Curt
2009-01-18 15:59:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by Curt
Post by lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:12:14 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK.  The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm.  They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements
Someone who does not comprehend the discussion isn't expected to
understand how the doctrine is applied.
... and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual).
That doesn't matter, if you follow the discussion.
Yes it does matter, else Christian FDR should have turned the other
cheek when the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor.
"Japs"?
No matter. We're not a Christian country. We're a secular country --
founded that way on purpose.
http://www.alliance4lifemin.org/articles.php?id=23
America's Christian Heritage - The Revolution and Beyond
by Alliance for Life Ministries
Most people don't realize what this nation was like at its beginning.
Even as late as 1776 – 150 years after a Christian group we refer to as
the Pilgrims moved their church to America, we see the population of our
country as: 98 percent Protestant Christians, 1.8 percent Catholic
Christians, and .2 of 1 percent Jewish. That means that 99.8% of the
people in America in 1776 professed to be Christians.
Sure. Shoot, even the Deists did. Means nothing. The FFs were deeply
suspicious of organized religion -- and they founded a secular
government that was designed to not support nor hinder religious
activity. Which, BTW, was supposed to be kept out of gummint.
Benjamin Franklin, who signed the Declaration and was often identified
as a deist in his younger years, delivered his most famous speech on
June 28, 1787, at the age of eighty-one. He said, "I have lived, sir, a
long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of
this truth: that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow
cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an
empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the
Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain
that build it."
They all spoke that way. Doesn't mean they meant it. Can you imagine
Ben Franklin talking with, say, Pat Robertson today?
Curt
Nice snip and deny, you LOST again.-
Nonsense. Anyone that wants to read your article can find it right
where you put it. I snipped for the sake of brevity.

Fact is, any FF would find Pat Robertson or Rick Warren utterly
contemptible.

Curt
lein
2009-01-18 16:23:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by Curt
Post by Curt
Post by lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:12:14 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK.  The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm.  They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements
Someone who does not comprehend the discussion isn't expected to
understand how the doctrine is applied.
... and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual).
That doesn't matter, if you follow the discussion.
Yes it does matter, else Christian FDR should have turned the other
cheek when the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor.
"Japs"?
No matter. We're not a Christian country. We're a secular country --
founded that way on purpose.
http://www.alliance4lifemin.org/articles.php?id=23
America's Christian Heritage - The Revolution and Beyond
by Alliance for Life Ministries
Most people don't realize what this nation was like at its beginning.
Even as late as 1776 – 150 years after a Christian group we refer to as
the Pilgrims moved their church to America, we see the population of our
country as: 98 percent Protestant Christians, 1.8 percent Catholic
Christians, and .2 of 1 percent Jewish. That means that 99.8% of the
people in America in 1776 professed to be Christians.
Sure. Shoot, even the Deists did. Means nothing. The FFs were deeply
suspicious of organized religion -- and they founded a secular
government that was designed to not support nor hinder religious
activity. Which, BTW, was supposed to be kept out of gummint.
Benjamin Franklin, who signed the Declaration and was often identified
as a deist in his younger years, delivered his most famous speech on
June 28, 1787, at the age of eighty-one. He said, "I have lived, sir, a
long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of
this truth: that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow
cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an
empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the
Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain
that build it."
They all spoke that way. Doesn't mean they meant it. Can you imagine
Ben Franklin talking with, say, Pat Robertson today?
Curt
Nice snip and deny, you LOST again.-
Nonsense. Anyone that wants to read your article can find it right
where you put it. I snipped for the sake of brevity.
Fact is, any FF would find Pat Robertson or Rick Warren utterly
contemptible.
As they would the Democrat party.
zarkon
2009-01-18 16:50:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by Curt
Post by Curt
Post by lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:12:14 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK. The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm. They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements
Someone who does not comprehend the discussion isn't expected to
understand how the doctrine is applied.
... and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual).
That doesn't matter, if you follow the discussion.
Yes it does matter, else Christian FDR should have turned the other
cheek when the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor.
"Japs"?
No matter. We're not a Christian country. We're a secular country --
founded that way on purpose.
http://www.alliance4lifemin.org/articles.php?id=23
America's Christian Heritage - The Revolution and Beyond
by Alliance for Life Ministries
Most people don't realize what this nation was like at its beginning.
Even as late as 1776 – 150 years after a Christian group we refer to as
the Pilgrims moved their church to America, we see the population of our
country as: 98 percent Protestant Christians, 1.8 percent Catholic
Christians, and .2 of 1 percent Jewish. That means that 99.8% of the
people in America in 1776 professed to be Christians.
Sure. Shoot, even the Deists did. Means nothing. The FFs were deeply
suspicious of organized religion -- and they founded a secular
government that was designed to not support nor hinder religious
activity. Which, BTW, was supposed to be kept out of gummint.
Benjamin Franklin, who signed the Declaration and was often identified
as a deist in his younger years, delivered his most famous speech on
June 28, 1787, at the age of eighty-one. He said, "I have lived, sir, a
long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of
this truth: that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow
cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an
empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the
Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain
that build it."
They all spoke that way. Doesn't mean they meant it. Can you imagine
Ben Franklin talking with, say, Pat Robertson today?
Curt
Nice snip and deny, you LOST again.-
Nonsense. Anyone that wants to read your article can find it right
where you put it. I snipped for the sake of brevity.
Nope, you snipped it for impact.
Post by Curt
Fact is, any FF would find Pat Robertson or Rick Warren utterly
contemptible.
Yeah, so????
Curt
2009-01-19 00:33:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by zarkon
Post by Curt
Post by Curt
Post by Curt
Post by lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:12:14 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK.  The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm.  They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements
Someone who does not comprehend the discussion isn't expected to
understand how the doctrine is applied.
... and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual).
That doesn't matter, if you follow the discussion.
Yes it does matter, else Christian FDR should have turned the other
cheek when the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor.
"Japs"?
No matter. We're not a Christian country. We're a secular country --
founded that way on purpose.
http://www.alliance4lifemin.org/articles.php?id=23
America's Christian Heritage - The Revolution and Beyond
by Alliance for Life Ministries
Most people don't realize what this nation was like at its beginning.
Even as late as 1776 – 150 years after a Christian group we refer to as
the Pilgrims moved their church to America, we see the population of our
country as: 98 percent Protestant Christians, 1.8 percent Catholic
Christians, and .2 of 1 percent Jewish. That means that 99.8% of the
people in America in 1776 professed to be Christians.
Sure. Shoot, even the Deists did. Means nothing. The FFs were deeply
suspicious of organized religion -- and they founded a secular
government that was designed to not support nor hinder religious
activity. Which, BTW, was supposed to be kept out of gummint.
Benjamin Franklin, who signed the Declaration and was often identified
as a deist in his younger years, delivered his most famous speech on
June 28, 1787, at the age of eighty-one. He said, "I have lived, sir, a
long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of
this truth: that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow
cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an
empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the
Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain
that build it."
They all spoke that way. Doesn't mean they meant it. Can you imagine
Ben Franklin talking with, say, Pat Robertson today?
Curt
Nice snip and deny, you LOST again.-
Nonsense. Anyone that wants to read your article can find it right
where you put it. I snipped for the sake of brevity.
Nope, you snipped it for impact.
Post by Curt
Fact is, any FF would find Pat Robertson or Rick Warren utterly
contemptible.
Yeah, so????-
So, guys like that are exactly why we were founded as a secular
country. The FFs didn't want them making the rules.

Curt
zarkon
2009-01-19 00:49:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by zarkon
Post by Curt
Post by Curt
Post by Curt
Post by lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:12:14 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK. The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm. They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements
Someone who does not comprehend the discussion isn't expected to
understand how the doctrine is applied.
... and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual).
That doesn't matter, if you follow the discussion.
Yes it does matter, else Christian FDR should have turned the other
cheek when the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor.
"Japs"?
No matter. We're not a Christian country. We're a secular country --
founded that way on purpose.
http://www.alliance4lifemin.org/articles.php?id=23
America's Christian Heritage - The Revolution and Beyond
by Alliance for Life Ministries
Most people don't realize what this nation was like at its beginning.
Even as late as 1776 – 150 years after a Christian group we refer to as
the Pilgrims moved their church to America, we see the population of our
country as: 98 percent Protestant Christians, 1.8 percent Catholic
Christians, and .2 of 1 percent Jewish. That means that 99.8% of the
people in America in 1776 professed to be Christians.
Sure. Shoot, even the Deists did. Means nothing. The FFs were deeply
suspicious of organized religion -- and they founded a secular
government that was designed to not support nor hinder religious
activity. Which, BTW, was supposed to be kept out of gummint.
Benjamin Franklin, who signed the Declaration and was often identified
as a deist in his younger years, delivered his most famous speech on
June 28, 1787, at the age of eighty-one. He said, "I have lived, sir, a
long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of
this truth: that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow
cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an
empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the
Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain
that build it."
They all spoke that way. Doesn't mean they meant it. Can you imagine
Ben Franklin talking with, say, Pat Robertson today?
Curt
Nice snip and deny, you LOST again.-
Nonsense. Anyone that wants to read your article can find it right
where you put it. I snipped for the sake of brevity.
Nope, you snipped it for impact.
Post by Curt
Fact is, any FF would find Pat Robertson or Rick Warren utterly
contemptible.
Yeah, so????-
So, guys like that are exactly why we were founded as a secular
country.
But we DIDN'T!
Post by Curt
The FFs didn't want them making the rules.
So they applied Biblical principles to our laws?
Curt
2009-01-19 14:14:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by zarkon
Post by Curt
Post by zarkon
Post by Curt
Post by Curt
Post by Curt
Post by lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:12:14 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK.  The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm.  They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements
Someone who does not comprehend the discussion isn't expected to
understand how the doctrine is applied.
... and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual).
That doesn't matter, if you follow the discussion.
Yes it does matter, else Christian FDR should have turned the other
cheek when the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor.
"Japs"?
No matter. We're not a Christian country. We're a secular country --
founded that way on purpose.
http://www.alliance4lifemin.org/articles.php?id=23
America's Christian Heritage - The Revolution and Beyond
by Alliance for Life Ministries
Most people don't realize what this nation was like at its beginning.
Even as late as 1776 – 150 years after a Christian group we refer to as
the Pilgrims moved their church to America, we see the population of our
country as: 98 percent Protestant Christians, 1.8 percent Catholic
Christians, and .2 of 1 percent Jewish. That means that 99.8% of the
people in America in 1776 professed to be Christians.
Sure. Shoot, even the Deists did. Means nothing. The FFs were deeply
suspicious of organized religion -- and they founded a secular
government that was designed to not support nor hinder religious
activity. Which, BTW, was supposed to be kept out of gummint.
Benjamin Franklin, who signed the Declaration and was often identified
as a deist in his younger years, delivered his most famous speech on
June 28, 1787, at the age of eighty-one. He said, "I have lived, sir, a
long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of
this truth: that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow
cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an
empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the
Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain
that build it."
They all spoke that way. Doesn't mean they meant it. Can you imagine
Ben Franklin talking with, say, Pat Robertson today?
Curt
Nice snip and deny, you LOST again.-
Nonsense. Anyone that wants to read your article can find it right
where you put it. I snipped for the sake of brevity.
Nope, you snipped it for impact.
Post by Curt
Fact is, any FF would find Pat Robertson or Rick Warren utterly
contemptible.
Yeah, so????-
So, guys like that are exactly why we were founded as a secular
country.
But we DIDN'T!
Post by Curt
The FFs didn't want them making the rules.
So they applied Biblical principles to our laws?-
Oh, not particularly. I mean, thou shalt not steal is pretty common
through all religions, right? But there's no thou shalt have no other
gods before me, or thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, or that kind
of stuff.

Curt
Curt
2009-01-20 00:24:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by zarkon
Post by Curt
Post by zarkon
Post by Curt
Post by Curt
Benjamin Franklin, who signed the Declaration and was often identified
as a deist in his younger years, delivered his most famous speech on
June 28, 1787, at the age of eighty-one. He said, "I have lived, sir, a
long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of
this truth: that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow
cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an
empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the
Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain
that build it."
They all spoke that way. Doesn't mean they meant it. Can you imagine
Ben Franklin talking with, say, Pat Robertson today?
Curt
Nice snip and deny, you LOST again.-
Nonsense. Anyone that wants to read your article can find it right
where you put it. I snipped for the sake of brevity.
Nope, you snipped it for impact.
Post by Curt
Fact is, any FF would find Pat Robertson or Rick Warren utterly
contemptible.
Yeah, so????-
So, guys like that are exactly why we were founded as a secular
country.
But we DIDN'T!
Post by Curt
The FFs didn't want them making the rules.
So they applied Biblical principles to our laws?-
Oh, not particularly.
http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/the-bible-and-govern...
No, no, no, no, no. The FFs set up a Western-style democracy (the
first, and arguably the best, and certainly the longest-lasting). But
it wasn't specifically biblically based. It was set up to keep an
aristocracy from emerging, and so forth, and that's somewhat in line
with some of what's in the Bible. But, as I say, even India has laws
against theft, and they're by no means a Christian nation.

The FFs didn't want organized religion infecting our secular
government. They set the system up to prevent that from happening, and
they did a pretty good job. They were hostile to Big Religion. Who
was the guy, something about "we won't have civilization till the last
king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest" or something
like that? One of those Enlightenment guys. I can't dredge him out of
my years-ago Humanities classes right now. But they all felt that way.
They were humanists and deists and small-church attenders. They would
have had no use for, say, Jerry Falwell.

Curt
Sam Parkhill
2009-01-20 01:35:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by Curt
Post by zarkon
Post by Curt
Post by zarkon
Post by Curt
Post by Curt
Benjamin Franklin, who signed the Declaration and was often identified
as a deist in his younger years, delivered his most famous speech on
June 28, 1787, at the age of eighty-one. He said, "I have lived, sir, a
long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of
this truth: that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow
cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an
empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the
Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain
that build it."
They all spoke that way. Doesn't mean they meant it. Can you imagine
Ben Franklin talking with, say, Pat Robertson today?
Curt
Nice snip and deny, you LOST again.-
Nonsense. Anyone that wants to read your article can find it right
where you put it. I snipped for the sake of brevity.
Nope, you snipped it for impact.
Post by Curt
Fact is, any FF would find Pat Robertson or Rick Warren utterly
contemptible.
Yeah, so????-
So, guys like that are exactly why we were founded as a secular
country.
But we DIDN'T!
Post by Curt
The FFs didn't want them making the rules.
So they applied Biblical principles to our laws?-
Oh, not particularly.
http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/the-bible-and-govern...
No, no, no, no, no.
Fuck off, that one torpedoed you.
Bill Shatzer
2009-01-20 04:21:07 UTC
Permalink
Curt wrote:

-snip-
Post by Curt
The FFs didn't want organized religion infecting our secular
government. They set the system up to prevent that from happening, and
they did a pretty good job. They were hostile to Big Religion. Who
was the guy, something about "we won't have civilization till the last
king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest" or something
like that? One of those Enlightenment guys. I can't dredge him out of
my years-ago Humanities classes right now.
Denis Diderot. And you had the quotation almost exactly right.

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the
entrails of the last priest."

Very good sir, very good.

Peace and justice,
Curt
2009-01-21 01:01:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
-snip-
Post by Curt
The FFs didn't want organized religion infecting our secular
government. They set the system up to prevent that from happening, and
they did a pretty good job. They were hostile to Big Religion. Who
was the guy, something about "we won't have civilization till the last
king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest" or something
like that? One of those Enlightenment guys. I can't dredge him out of
my years-ago Humanities classes right now.
Denis Diderot. And you had the quotation almost exactly right.
"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the
entrails of the last priest."
Very good sir, very good.
Diderot. No wonder I couldn't remember - he had a goofy name!

Curt
Bill Shatzer
2009-01-21 06:24:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by Bill Shatzer
-snip-
Post by Curt
The FFs didn't want organized religion infecting our secular
government. They set the system up to prevent that from happening, and
they did a pretty good job. They were hostile to Big Religion. Who
was the guy, something about "we won't have civilization till the last
king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest" or something
like that? One of those Enlightenment guys. I can't dredge him out of
my years-ago Humanities classes right now.
Denis Diderot. And you had the quotation almost exactly right.
"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the
entrails of the last priest."
Very good sir, very good.
Diderot. No wonder I couldn't remember - he had a goofy name!
Always thought there should be a French car named the Diderot.



Peace and justice,
lein
2009-01-21 06:41:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by Curt
Post by zarkon
Post by Curt
Post by zarkon
Post by Curt
Post by Curt
Benjamin Franklin, who signed the Declaration and was often identified
as a deist in his younger years, delivered his most famous speech on
June 28, 1787, at the age of eighty-one. He said, "I have lived, sir, a
long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of
this truth: that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow
cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an
empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the
Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain
that build it."
They all spoke that way. Doesn't mean they meant it. Can you imagine
Ben Franklin talking with, say, Pat Robertson today?
Curt
Nice snip and deny, you LOST again.-
Nonsense. Anyone that wants to read your article can find it right
where you put it. I snipped for the sake of brevity.
Nope, you snipped it for impact.
Post by Curt
Fact is, any FF would find Pat Robertson or Rick Warren utterly
contemptible.
Yeah, so????-
So, guys like that are exactly why we were founded as a secular
country.
But we DIDN'T!
Post by Curt
The FFs didn't want them making the rules.
So they applied Biblical principles to our laws?-
Oh, not particularly.
http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/the-bible-and-govern...
No, no, no, no, no. The FFs set up a Western-style democracy (the
first, and arguably the best, and certainly the longest-lasting). But
it wasn't specifically biblically based. It was set up to keep an
aristocracy from emerging, and so forth,  and that's somewhat in line
with some of what's in the Bible. But, as I say, even India has laws
against theft, and they're by no means a Christian nation.
The FFs didn't want organized religion infecting our secular
government. They set the system up to prevent that from happening, and
they did a pretty good job.  They were hostile to Big Religion. Who
was the guy, something about "we won't have civilization till the last
king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest" or something
like that? One of those Enlightenment guys. I can't dredge him out of
my years-ago Humanities classes right now. But they all felt that way.
They were humanists and deists and small-church attenders. They would
have had no use for, say, Jerry Falwell.
Which ones were the deists?
Bill Shatzer
2009-01-21 19:48:17 UTC
Permalink
lein wrote:

-snip-
Post by lein
Post by Curt
The FFs didn't want organized religion infecting our secular
government. They set the system up to prevent that from happening, and
they did a pretty good job. They were hostile to Big Religion. Who
was the guy, something about "we won't have civilization till the last
king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest" or something
like that? One of those Enlightenment guys. I can't dredge him out of
my years-ago Humanities classes right now. But they all felt that way.
They were humanists and deists and small-church attenders. They would
have had no use for, say, Jerry Falwell.
Which ones were the deists?
Recognizing that belief is not fixed and may vary and change over a
lifetime, Thomas Jefferson and Tom Payne were certainly deists. John
Adams, George Washington, Ben Franklin, James Madison and Alexander
Hamilton very likely. Cornelius Harnett, Ethan Allen, Gouverneur Morris,
and Hugh Williamson probably.

But you could have looked that up yerself - and likely added another
dozen names to the list as well.

Peace and justice,
David Hume
2009-02-01 20:24:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
-snip-
Post by lein
Post by Curt
The FFs didn't want organized religion infecting our secular
government. They set the system up to prevent that from happening, and
they did a pretty good job.  They were hostile to Big Religion. Who
was the guy, something about "we won't have civilization till the last
king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest" or something
like that? One of those Enlightenment guys. I can't dredge him out of
my years-ago Humanities classes right now. But they all felt that way.
They were humanists and deists and small-church attenders. They would
have had no use for, say, Jerry Falwell.
Which ones were the deists?
Recognizing that belief is not fixed and may vary and change over a
lifetime, Thomas Jefferson and Tom Payne were certainly deists. John
Adams, George Washington, Ben Franklin, James Madison and Alexander
Hamilton very likely. Cornelius Harnett, Ethan Allen, Gouverneur Morris,
and Hugh Williamson probably.
But you could have looked that up yerself - and likely added another
dozen names to the list as well.
Peace and justice,
Deist was a safe way of being an atheist.
These people were anti-religion. They avoided prosecution and
presecution by nominally believing in something.
The quote about the last entrails of a priest is usually attributed to
Voltaire.
"Man will never be free until the last king has been strangled with
the entrails of the last priest"
Bill Shatzer
2009-01-15 19:40:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK. The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm. They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual). But if you want to
play, the very same Talmud teaches "if someone comes to kill you, rise
up to kill him first."
But not his children, his neighbors, or anyone who happens to be in the
general vicinity.

Peace and justice,
zarkon
2009-01-16 03:02:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK. The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm. They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual). But if you want to
play, the very same Talmud teaches "if someone comes to kill you, rise
up to kill him first."
But not his children, his neighbors, or anyone who happens to be in the
general vicinity.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Bill Shatzer wrote:

And over 4,000 Americans have paid with their lives for that little
adventure. Plus a half a trillion dollars in national treasure

You might compare that with the number of lives lost on 9-11. Or the
economic injury incurred from that event.

It would have been cheaper in both lives and money to just suffer
another 9-11 every six or seven years.

Peace and justice,

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
lein
2009-01-16 04:02:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK.  The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm.  They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual).   But if you want to
play, the very same Talmud teaches "if someone comes to kill you, rise
up to kill him first."
But not his children, his neighbors, or anyone who happens to be in the
general vicinity.
According to Don's interpretation of proportional response, Israel is
theologically required to target innocent non-combatents.
g***@amusenet.com
2009-01-16 16:10:10 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:02:17 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by lein
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK.  The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm.  They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual).   But if you want to
play, the very same Talmud teaches "if someone comes to kill you, rise
up to kill him first."
But not his children, his neighbors, or anyone who happens to be in the
general vicinity.
According to Don's interpretation of proportional response, Israel is
theologically required to target innocent non-combatents.
How you manage to get that 180 degrees out is worth a psychological
study. Precisely the opposite is the case.

Proportional response says that you May do the same harm to your
opponent as they do to you, and it must be to the person Doing the
harm -- not to everyone else on the block.

You really aren't terribly good as this sort of thing, lein.

As for targeting innocent combatants, that's done regardless of any
theological doctrine.
Lobby Dosser
2009-01-17 05:32:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:02:17 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by lein
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK. The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm. They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual). But if you want to
play, the very same Talmud teaches "if someone comes to kill you, rise
up to kill him first."
But not his children, his neighbors, or anyone who happens to be in the
general vicinity.
According to Don's interpretation of proportional response, Israel is
theologically required to target innocent non-combatents.
How you manage to get that 180 degrees out is worth a psychological
study. Precisely the opposite is the case.
Proportional response says that you May do the same harm to your
opponent as they do to you, and it must be to the person Doing the
harm -- not to everyone else on the block.
You really aren't terribly good as this sort of thing, lein.
As for targeting innocent combatants, that's done regardless of any
theological doctrine.
So you did it regardless of creed?
g***@amusenet.com
2009-01-17 16:48:37 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:32:06 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
As for targeting innocent combatants, that's done regardless of any
theological doctrine.
So you did it regardless of creed?
I did not do it.

And creed didnt' matter regardless. I only Targeted individuals who
were shooting at me.
Lobby Dosser
2009-01-18 00:45:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:32:06 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
As for targeting innocent combatants, that's done regardless of any
theological doctrine.
So you did it regardless of creed?
I did not do it.
You said you did.
Post by g***@amusenet.com
And creed didnt' matter regardless. I only Targeted individuals who
were shooting at me.
So you were taking fire from the FFZs?
g***@amusenet.com
2009-01-18 16:49:29 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:45:27 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:32:06 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
As for targeting innocent combatants, that's done regardless of any
theological doctrine.
So you did it regardless of creed?
I did not do it.
You said you did.
You are lying.
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
And creed didnt' matter regardless. I only Targeted individuals who
were shooting at me.
So you were taking fire from the FFZs?
Read the statement for Meaning, next time.
zarkon
2009-01-18 17:08:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:45:27 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:32:06 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
As for targeting innocent combatants, that's done regardless of any
theological doctrine.
So you did it regardless of creed?
I did not do it.
You said you did.
You are lying.
Fuck off war criminal, you're the one who bragged here about your free fire.

It's all been documented ad nauseum.

You're a really sick liar.
g***@amusenet.com
2009-01-18 18:06:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by zarkon
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:45:27 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:32:06 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
As for targeting innocent combatants, that's done regardless of any
theological doctrine.
So you did it regardless of creed?
I did not do it.
You said you did.
You are lying.
Fuck off war criminal, you're the one who bragged here about your free fire.
It wasn't bragging and it isn't a war crime. Not for me and not for
the tens of thousands of other Murken Soldiers who fired into FFZs.
zarkon
2009-01-18 20:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
Post by zarkon
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:45:27 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:32:06 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
As for targeting innocent combatants, that's done regardless of any
theological doctrine.
So you did it regardless of creed?
I did not do it.
You said you did.
You are lying.
Fuck off war criminal, you're the one who bragged here about your free fire.
It wasn't bragging and it isn't a war crime.
You said it, you live with it.
Lobby Dosser
2009-01-19 01:18:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:45:27 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:32:06 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
As for targeting innocent combatants, that's done regardless of any
theological doctrine.
So you did it regardless of creed?
I did not do it.
You said you did.
You are lying.
Nope. You fired into FFZs.
Post by g***@amusenet.com
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
And creed didnt' matter regardless. I only Targeted individuals who
were shooting at me.
So you were taking fire from the FFZs?
Read the statement for Meaning, next time.
Answer the question.
g***@amusenet.com
2009-01-19 16:13:20 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 17:18:32 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:45:27 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:32:06 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
As for targeting innocent combatants, that's done regardless of any
theological doctrine.
So you did it regardless of creed?
I did not do it.
You said you did.
You are lying.
Nope. You fired into FFZs.
Which is Not a war crime.
Sancho Panza
2009-01-19 20:50:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 17:18:32 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:45:27 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:32:06 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
As for targeting innocent combatants, that's done regardless of any
theological doctrine.
So you did it regardless of creed?
I did not do it.
You said you did.
You are lying.
Nope. You fired into FFZs.
Which is Not a war crime.
Which is like setting a bullshit budget number and coming in below or above
it, depending on what result is desired.
g***@amusenet.com
2009-01-20 01:30:46 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:50:07 -0500, "Sancho Panza"
Post by Sancho Panza
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 17:18:32 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:45:27 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:32:06 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
As for targeting innocent combatants, that's done regardless of any
theological doctrine.
So you did it regardless of creed?
I did not do it.
You said you did.
You are lying.
Nope. You fired into FFZs.
Which is Not a war crime.
Which is like setting a bullshit budget number and coming in below or above
it, depending on what result is desired.
Really? Just how is it Like that?

Inquiring minds....

Firing into a FFZ was not a war crime.

Establishing a FFZ was, however. Still is, to my understanding.
Lobby Dosser
2009-01-21 10:57:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:50:07 -0500, "Sancho Panza"
Post by Sancho Panza
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 17:18:32 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:45:27 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:32:06 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
Post by Lobby Dosser
Post by g***@amusenet.com
As for targeting innocent combatants, that's done regardless of any
theological doctrine.
So you did it regardless of creed?
I did not do it.
You said you did.
You are lying.
Nope. You fired into FFZs.
Which is Not a war crime.
Which is like setting a bullshit budget number and coming in below or above
it, depending on what result is desired.
Really? Just how is it Like that?
Inquiring minds....
Firing into a FFZ was not a war crime.
Yep.
Post by g***@amusenet.com
Establishing a FFZ was, however. Still is, to my understanding.
You don't understand much at all.
lein
2009-01-21 06:47:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:02:17 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by lein
Post by Bill Shatzer
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK.  The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm.  They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual).   But if you want to
play, the very same Talmud teaches "if someone comes to kill you, rise
up to kill him first."
But not his children, his neighbors, or anyone who happens to be in the
general vicinity.
According to Don's interpretation of proportional response, Israel is
theologically required to target innocent non-combatents.
How you manage to get that 180 degrees out is worth a psychological
study.  Precisely the opposite is the case.
Proportional response says that you May do the same harm to your
opponent as they do to you, and it must be to the person Doing the
harm -- not to everyone else on the block.
Proportional in what way? Clearly it can't mean 1-1 as Israel is
outnumbered by the number of muslims who want it to die. The intent
was not the destruction of the state.
Post by g***@amusenet.com
You really aren't terribly good as this sort of thing, lein.
As for targeting innocent combatants, that's done regardless of any
theological doctrine.
What's an innocent combatant?
g***@amusenet.com
2009-01-21 17:06:21 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:47:50 -0800 (PST), lein
Post by lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
Proportional response says that you May do the same harm to your
opponent as they do to you, and it must be to the person Doing the
harm -- not to everyone else on the block.
Proportional in what way? Clearly it can't mean 1-1
Clearly it does mean precisely that, if you follow the Talmudic code
strictly.

Clearly it does Not authorize you to kill off everyone within a
hunnert yards of where your opponent is.
Post by lein
... as Israel is
outnumbered by the number of muslims who want it to die. The intent
was not the destruction of the state.
Immaterial to the discussion.
Post by lein
Post by g***@amusenet.com
You really aren't terribly good as this sort of thing, lein.
As for targeting innocent combatants, that's done regardless of any
theological doctrine.
What's an innocent combatant?
Those whom you define as Targets, when they are not reasonably so
defined.

It's sorta like the body count in Viet Nam. So long as the indigenous
personnel (loved that phrase!) were dead, then the Were VC for the
purposes of the body count.

Didn't much matter how old, which sex, whether handicapped or not --
If they were dead, then the Were VC.
lein
2009-01-15 18:12:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
Post by s***@zunes.not
Virtually the Entire Dem-Controlled Congress Supports Israel's War
Crimes in Gaza
I claim no Middle East expertise. But didn't Hamas start shooting
rockets into Israel?
Since Hamas has no air force or long range artillery, and Israel
decided to tighten the blockade when they were supposed to loosen it,
sending Israel a protest note or a press release would probably not
get their attention.
Post by Curt
Isn't that what started this latest iteration?
Nah - there is no Start to anything in the Middle East.  It's just a
continuation of what's been going on.
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK.  The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm.  They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual). But if you want to
play, the very same Talmud teaches "if someone comes to kill you, rise
up to kill him first."
Lobby Dosser
2009-01-16 03:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
Post by s***@zunes.not
Virtually the Entire Dem-Controlled Congress Supports Israel's War
Crimes in Gaza
I claim no Middle East expertise. But didn't Hamas start shooting
rockets into Israel?
Since Hamas has no air force or long range artillery, and Israel
decided to tighten the blockade when they were supposed to loosen it,
sending Israel a protest note or a press release would probably not
get their attention.
Post by Curt
Isn't that what started this latest iteration?
Nah - there is no Start to anything in the Middle East. It's just a
continuation of what's been going on.
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK. The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm. They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual). But if you want to
play, the very same Talmud teaches "if someone comes to kill you, rise
up to kill him first."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Pre-emptive Strike!
zarkon
2009-01-16 03:58:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@amusenet.com
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:50:01 -0800 (PST), Curt
Post by Curt
Post by s***@zunes.not
Virtually the Entire Dem-Controlled Congress Supports Israel's War
Crimes in Gaza
I claim no Middle East expertise. But didn't Hamas start shooting
rockets into Israel?
Since Hamas has no air force or long range artillery, and Israel
decided to tighten the blockade when they were supposed to loosen it,
sending Israel a protest note or a press release would probably not
get their attention.
Post by Curt
Isn't that what started this latest iteration?
Nah - there is no Start to anything in the Middle East. It's just a
continuation of what's been going on.
Post by Curt
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
If that's All the IDF was doing, that would be OK. The Talmud teaches
them that they should respond to harm with proportional harm. They
are not.
This has to be one of your dumber statements and miss-use of scripture
(substituting the state for the individual). But if you want to
play, the very same Talmud teaches "if someone comes to kill you, rise
up to kill him first."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Pre-emptive Strike!
....oh I like those!
David Hume
2009-02-01 20:31:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by s***@zunes.not
Virtually the Entire Dem-Controlled Congress Supports Israel's War
Crimes in Gaza
I claim no Middle East expertise. But didn't Hamas start shooting
rockets into Israel? Isn't that what started this latest iteration?
I'm fine with Israel defending itself.
I'm not fine with cluster bombs in town, though. Or shooting at UN
relief vehicles. WTF is up with that?
Curt
This is always the silly argument. Who started the shooting first.
It all depends how far back you want to go.
The Jews took control by force, of the region in 1948 against the
resolutions and plan of the United Nations. They are still in breach
of a UN ruling. The terrorists that siezed control were sold Pershing
tanks to kill the arabs, and the Israelis have been killing and
persecuting arabs ever since.
So the Jews started the shooting first and the US has been supporting
them ever since. This support has been engineered to keep the region
unstable, as was the support of the Iran/Iraq war; as was the
imposition by CIA and other western influences of the Shah of Iran.
The aim seems to be to prevent the re-emergence of a unified state
that pertained before the end of WW 1.

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